Episode 3
Russel Howcroft - Beyond the Brand
Today, we had the opportunity to speak to one of the most beloved media personalities in Australia. Our guest this week is advertising titan, broadcaster, and media executive Russel Howcroft. Widely known as the brilliant, sharp-witted panelist on ABC’s smash-hit show Gruen, and the co-host of Melbourne’s top-rated 3AW Breakfast radio program, Russel has spent decades at the absolute pinnacle of the Australian marketing world. He is the epitome of the refined, successful marketing man—a brand built on confidence, strategy, and triumph.
But what happens when you strip away the polished corporate image?
In this deeply moving interview, Russell connects with his youth in a way he rarely does publicly, in a revealing and emotional way. He opens up about a pivotal moment that had a profound impact on his development: the separation of his parents when he was a boy. Russell shares how this early disruption reshaped his worldview, and he traces the ultimate origins of his relentless drive to achieve and succeed back to his childhood dynamics.
He also shares a beautiful, deep connection to his past through nostalgic memories—particularly the safe, magical time spent at his grandfather’s house, which served as a crucial emotional sanctuary.
In their post-interview debrief, James and Nick unpack the fascinating psychology behind Russell's childhood blueprint:
The Architecture of Ambition: How early changes in family stability, like parental separation, can subconsciously ignite a powerful, lifelong drive to create order, security, and monumental success.
Nostalgia as a Psychological Anchor: The restorative power of childhood memories and how having a safe sanctuary provides a child with a vital blueprint for emotional security.
The Persona vs. The Inner Child: Exploring the contrast between the highly successful "adult brand" we present to the world and the deeply feeling child that still exists beneath it.
This is a rare, captivating look at a familiar face, proving that no matter how big the brand we build as adults, we are all still carrying the boys and girls we used to be.
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As mentioned in the episode, please check out the wonderul podcast Modern Wisdom.
Credits: Produced and Hosted by Dr James van Cuylenburg & Nick van Cuylenburg.
Audio production by White Owl Sound.
Season 2 is brought to you by Engage 1on1 Psychology
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Transcript
Where does our drive to succeed come from?
Speaker A:Is it something we're born with or is it forged in childhood?
Speaker A:Today we explore that question with the one and only Russell Howcroft.
Speaker A:From the Gruen panel to the three AW airwaves, he's one of the most influential and beloved voices in Australian media.
Speaker A:But today we're going beyond the brand to meet the man and hear the stories behind the success.
Speaker A:Nick, what a privilege it was to speak with Russell.
Speaker A:What struck you most about speaking with him?
Speaker B:It was a privilege, wasn't it?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:What struck me most, perhaps his infectious energy and his wit.
Speaker B:He was really funny and fast paced and entertaining.
Speaker A:Yeah, I agree.
Speaker A:It actually took a bit to keep up with him at times.
Speaker A:He is very smart and very funny and his brain goes quickly.
Speaker A:But there's also a lot of wisdom there and I think that's definitely there in this episode today.
Speaker B:Yeah, and a very nostalgic man as well.
Speaker B:So for sure it's good to share in that.
Speaker B:But yeah, just quickly before we get started as well, just wanted to say a huge thank you to everyone that's been listening along and all of the wonderful messages and warmth that we've received.
Speaker B:So thank you very, very much.
Speaker B:And of course, if you want to support us, please do share it with anyone you think would like this.
Speaker B:And the usuals like rating and reviews really do help us.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:And a reminder, we're up on YouTube this year as well with full episodes featured there if you would prefer to watch as well as listen.
Speaker A:But we really hope you enjoy this episode.
Speaker A:Russell's a legend and we love talking to him, so enjoy.
Speaker A:Russell Howcroft, you're a Good Kid is recorded on the lands of the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation and is supported by Engage One on One Psychology Helping People Engage with Life.
Speaker B:This podcast discusses mental health related themes that may be triggering for some listeners.
Speaker B: r if urgent, call Lifeline on: Speaker A:My name is James Van Cuylenburg.
Speaker A:I'm a clinical psychologist and together with my brother Nick, we're going to hear stories from a diverse range of people about how their childhoods have shaped them.
Speaker B:Our guests are invited to share a photo of themselves as kids, which you can see by following the link in the show notes and at the end of each episode you'll hear them read a letter to their child selves.
Speaker A:If you could say anything to your child self, what would you say?
Speaker B:Welcome to youo're a Good Kid.
Speaker B: Russell Howcroft was born in: Speaker C:Mortlake is known for its square pies.
Speaker C:I believe that most people that drive along the Western highway stop at Mortlake and go and get themselves a square pie.
Speaker B:Russell's father was a country boy who was brought up on a farm, who then, at age 21, married a girl from the city.
Speaker B:So Russell only spent his first two years living in Mortlake before his mother got her way and the family moved to Melbourne, eventually settling in the suburb of East Malvern.
Speaker C:I had a suburban life in a way, in that I had a bicycle and I played local footy and I played local cricket and we went to, you know, the Harold Holt swimming pool.
Speaker C:And that's, you know, the first kiss was actually underwater and she stuck a tongue in my mouth.
Speaker C:Had no idea what was going on.
Speaker C:It was very strange.
Speaker C:Hello, Sarah, if you're listening.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker B:Russell has two older sisters, Deborah and Margie.
Speaker B:I asked Russell how much older they were, but he wasn't too sure.
Speaker C:You know, she's probably six or six years older than me, six or seven.
Speaker C:Six years older, and I still don't know her birthday.
Speaker C:I don't know any of my sister's birthdays or my mother's birthday.
Speaker C:Every year I forget.
Speaker C:Anyway.
Speaker B:Russell's father, John, was a man of high character and someone he describes as a creative cat, excelling at any project he put his mind to, from piano to advertising to cartoons.
Speaker C:I would go into his office and he would show me a number of the cartoons that he was thinking about and we would have a conversation about ideas.
Speaker C:And I was having that conversation with him from a very young age.
Speaker C:And I do feel like that played a big role in who and what I am, what I became.
Speaker B:Russell describes his mother, Elizabeth, as one of the friendliest and most delightful people you'll ever meet.
Speaker B:And he recalls that she was a very nurturing mother.
Speaker C:She was very loving and very, very caring.
Speaker C:And she made a fabulous bed, you know, like, tight.
Speaker C:Actually.
Speaker C:I think I'm a lot like my mother and others will say that as well.
Speaker C:You know, my mum says hello to everyone that she sees in the street.
Speaker C:Like, she literally says good morning to strangers in the street.
Speaker A:Street.
Speaker C:As do I.
Speaker B:When Russell was 13 years old, his life turned upside down as his parents decided to get a divorce.
Speaker B:And he chose from that moment on to live with his father.
Speaker B:This was, of course, a very difficult time in his life and it's had a lasting impact, which we'll explore in today's Conversation but up until the age of 13 Russell has mostly warm and happy memories of his early childhood.
Speaker C:Well until I, until I was 13, until my parents broke up home from Felt very safe.
Speaker C:Very safe and very secure.
Speaker C:I was thoroughly loved, well looked after and had a terrific time.
Speaker C:Terrific time.
Speaker A:Russell Howcroft.
Speaker C:G' day.
Speaker B:Welcome.
Speaker C:Thanks James.
Speaker C:Hello Nick.
Speaker B:Hello Russell.
Speaker C:Nice to.
Speaker C:Nice to meet you Nick, Lovely to meet you.
Speaker C:Nice to see you again, James.
Speaker A:Well that's it.
Speaker A:We met in an unusual way let's say with you inviting me to your birthday party.
Speaker C:I did.
Speaker C:It was actually, it was my 60th not that long ago.
Speaker C:Yes and I, I decided very last minute that it wasn't right to, you know, to not acknowledge it in some way and then a girlfriend of mine was in, she lives in Sydney she was going to be in Melbourne on the Friday so she arrived on Wednesday birthday Thursday I got some Gucci loafers Nick from my wife was outstanding.
Speaker B:I have no idea what that is.
Speaker C:Oh yeah, Gucci loafers.
Speaker C:Gucci loafers.
Speaker B:You are fancy.
Speaker C:Yeah, it was really good.
Speaker C:Anyway, so, so another friend.
Speaker C:So Kate Burke is my wife well known to all of us, you know Kate Burke, just wonderful.
Speaker C:Two syllables.
Speaker C:There's something about it I've always enjoyed.
Speaker C:Just Kate Burke.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Another great friend of mine is Kate Bell and do you say it like that?
Speaker C:Well she gets called Kate Bell because Kate Berg is Kate Berg and she's Kate Bell.
Speaker B:As long as you don't confuse them.
Speaker C:Well they'd be sort of quite nice to.
Speaker C:Anyway, so Kate Bell was in town and then I thought okay, you know, like come on, fire up.
Speaker C:And I went to a venue and I said listen, let's, let's say 10 people anyway, 10 people turned into 34 people over the course of about 48 hours.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:And I just said to my son in law I think we need Cat Stevens which was, I don't know, something of a random thought really.
Speaker C:Although childhood memory know about that.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:So I.
Speaker C:Well we just got onto the Google and then found you who that who the following day was doing your first performance of your so tell us about.
Speaker C:It's your Cat Stevens thing.
Speaker A:Our listeners wouldn't know this but in my other life I do a lot of concerts and I have a group called Music Legends Productions with my friend Paul and Dave and well actually we're all a big bunch of friends who've played music forever.
Speaker A:Yeah and we love this era.
Speaker A:I never quite got over Mum and Dad's record collection.
Speaker A:A lot of people go, you know, they Develop their own taste.
Speaker A:But I just said, I just stopped there.
Speaker A:I listened to the Beatles and Cat Stevens and James Taylor and Simon Agarfunkel, and I was like, music doesn't really get better than this.
Speaker C:Yep.
Speaker A:So that's where I stopped.
Speaker A:And now, because that music is so infused in, you know, our culture and life, we're having a lot of fun putting on concerts.
Speaker C:And have you got Elton John coming up?
Speaker A:Yeah, we've done that as well.
Speaker A:So we do seven different shows.
Speaker B:And Billy.
Speaker A:Billy Joel is close to my heart.
Speaker A:But you happened to time your birthday at the exact moment we were launching Cat Stevens at Chapel off Chapel, which is a beautiful venue and it was a lovely show, but you sent me a message saying, I'd like to book the show the following Saturday.
Speaker A:And I said, I'm so sorry, sir, but it's actually this weekend.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah, I know.
Speaker C:Anyway, we spoke and I could just hear in your voice.
Speaker C:I knew that I was speaking to a musician and a butcher.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And we had fun.
Speaker A:We had so much fun.
Speaker B:And did he deliver?
Speaker C:Big time.
Speaker A:We crowded in on a tiny little.
Speaker A:Tiny little stage.
Speaker A:There was barely room to move, but, you know, that's how.
Speaker A:Inner city gigs.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Like, I was sitting on the bass drum.
Speaker A:Like, that's what we're talking about.
Speaker A:But it was so fun.
Speaker C:It was good.
Speaker A:You sang along a lot.
Speaker A:You were into it.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And it's interesting when you're just talking about those artists.
Speaker C:So Billy Joel, Elton John, Simon and Garfunkel.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker C:Cat Stevens.
Speaker C:They all tracks from my childhood.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker C:So my mum was very big on music.
Speaker C:Still is, actually.
Speaker C:You know, she would put on an album and all of those artists were a big part, you know.
Speaker C:Yellow Brick.
Speaker C:I can see the.
Speaker C:We can all see the COVID of Yellow Brick.
Speaker C:Yeah, we can all see it in our mind's eye right now.
Speaker C:You know, I can see it.
Speaker C:I can see exactly where it is at the house that I was brought up in.
Speaker C:Simon Garfunkel, same thing.
Speaker C:Bread.
Speaker C:Bread comes to mind as well.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker C:James Taylor.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:And also Jesus Christ Superstar.
Speaker C:John English, of course, was Judas.
Speaker C:And that was the first musical that I ever saw, which would have been 72.
Speaker C:So I'm six or seven years of age.
Speaker C:My mum took me along to that.
Speaker C:And my favourite track from that song is what's the Buzz?
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker C:Just very funky.
Speaker A:It is, it is.
Speaker C:We might have to do a Jesus Christ Superstar reunion of some sort.
Speaker A:I love the quote from the movie when, you know, things are getting a bit tense and one of them just goes, hey, cool it, man.
Speaker C:Great stuff.
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker C:Anyway, so at the 60th, we had a fantastic time and James and Cat Steven's tracks.
Speaker C:And of course the first song was Remember the Days of the Old School Yard.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:As per your request.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Which made a lot of sense.
Speaker C:You know, I all.
Speaker C:Gee whiz.
Speaker C:I mean, not all of the people that were there, I've known since I was a teenager, but pretty close.
Speaker A:There was a lot of history in that room.
Speaker A:And when you gave your speech, that's when I actually.
Speaker A:The penny dropped that.
Speaker A:I'd love to invite you to come and talk to us because there was more to this whole Cat Stevens thing than just.
Speaker A:I like those songs.
Speaker A:Yeah, tell us that story.
Speaker C:Well, one of my great friends was there, probably my oldest friend, really James, James Randall.
Speaker C:My father was good friends with his father.
Speaker C:My son Charlie's great friends with James's son Ed.
Speaker C:So yeah, it's sort of cross generational, which is nice.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Mount Martha beach there sometimes.
Speaker C:I don't know whether you guys have ever been at Mount Martha beach when it just somehow, for some reason it can be beyond perfect.
Speaker A:Our parents live there, so we're there often.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:So you will know and maybe it's 33, there's probably no wind and for some reason the bay is milkier there than it is anywhere else.
Speaker A:It's beautiful.
Speaker C:There's a weirdness to it, like I don't even read.
Speaker C:I'm not doing a good job describing what it can be.
Speaker C:But those that know it will understand it.
Speaker C:There's a serenity.
Speaker C:It's incredible.
Speaker C:So it was one of those days.
Speaker C:And again, I'm very young.
Speaker C:Well, I imagine it was Moon Shadow would have been just a new song.
Speaker C:So what year would that be?
Speaker A:Oh, 71.
Speaker C:71.
Speaker C:So let's say it's 71.
Speaker C:So summer of 71, and we're just out there on the sandbanks and we're seeing Moon Shadow.
Speaker C:And that's all it is, but a very, very powerful memory with my mate James, who then when I went to.
Speaker C:He and I went to the same school.
Speaker C:And the first day that I arrived at the school, he was at the gate, the school gate, waiting for me, you know, and when my father died at 63, the first person I rang to tell was James, you know, so we do go a long way back.
Speaker A:So the music is infused with the bond and the memory of him.
Speaker C:It.
Speaker C:Absolutely it is.
Speaker C:And then a little later on we, all of our families, probably when we're Seven or eight our families had a caravan trip to Adelaide and into the hills, up into Naurupa, Flinders Ranges, which was a moment that we all remember.
Speaker C:All of our families remember that very well.
Speaker C:James and I would be in the back of their station wagon, you know, so as we're driving along with the caravan on the back, we're just in the back of the station wagon playing with our pocket knives.
Speaker C:So, you know, you know, pretty free.
Speaker A:Not trying to stab each other.
Speaker A:I'd imagine there was something else.
Speaker C:No, just, you know, just, just whittling.
Speaker A:Right, okay.
Speaker C:Just, just imagine that happening today.
Speaker C:Yeah, unlikely.
Speaker C:And we played, you know, try and stab each other.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker C:What was it called?
Speaker B:Unsupervised play.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker C:I think we called it knives.
Speaker C:When you, when you sort of try and get the knife in between your feet.
Speaker A:Oh, gosh.
Speaker C:Had to be bare feet as well.
Speaker C:And then you sort of, you put it out wide and then you have to put your foot to where the knife landed and then if you could throw it in between, then you could get your feet together.
Speaker B:That's next level.
Speaker B:I remember playing the stabbing in the hand game.
Speaker C:Oh, quite a bit.
Speaker B:Where you have to just go faster and faster.
Speaker A:I don't know that we did that with knives.
Speaker A:Oh, true.
Speaker B:It was, it wasn't quite as extreme.
Speaker C:No.
Speaker B:Anyway, 70s were a different time.
Speaker C:Different time.
Speaker C:And then, and then.
Speaker C:But it's quite interesting that on that trip we put on a play and I remember James's sisters laughing at me because I was taking it seriously and that isn't a good memory.
Speaker A:Uh huh.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:So if it was an embarrassment.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:And of course we all get embarrassed as kids.
Speaker C:That's, you know, and we can probably all line them all up.
Speaker C:But that, that was, that was definitely an embarrassing situation where.
Speaker C:Because I actually.
Speaker C:I would have been taking it seriously.
Speaker C:I would have been.
Speaker C:I know that that is true that I would have been, you know.
Speaker A:So can you extrapolate from that moment?
Speaker A:Like what?
Speaker A:It's interesting you remember it so vividly and.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:I can instantly think of times of embarrassment.
Speaker A:Strikingly as you say that as well.
Speaker A:What did that do?
Speaker C:Well, it makes you.
Speaker C:Takes a bit of skin off you when it comes to just freedom of expression.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker C:There's no, there's no question that that actually does happen.
Speaker A:The.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And probably what that does do, it adds an element of embarrassment that perhaps you hadn't experienced before, you know, which is not a good thing.
Speaker C:But maybe the biggest impact that it has is that when you become a father and the encouragement that you try and give to your kids.
Speaker C:I think that it definitely had quite a significant effect.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:It's an interesting thing to think about.
Speaker C:It's a little moment, isn't it?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Our self preservation kicks in and there's a kind of loss of innocence or something at that point where something really stings.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And the chance of social rejection gets a little higher.
Speaker A:But in the context of childhood.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Quite foundational.
Speaker A:And I think of.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:My kids.
Speaker A:I've got two girls, Russell, 6 and 11.
Speaker A:And I just.
Speaker A:I don't want them to be embarrassed.
Speaker A:I don't want them to be restrained.
Speaker A:You want them to be their full expression of themselves.
Speaker C:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker A:But it's hard to protect against that instinct.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And maybe there's a.
Speaker C:Maybe a. Nah.
Speaker C:You know, like full expression of themselves.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker C:I mean, I am somewhat fearful that everyone in the inn is just gonna have to be a creative cat.
Speaker C:And because, you know, the machines are gonna take over everything else.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:And then there's gonna be.
Speaker C:Which is good at one.
Speaker C:At one element of that is that's good.
Speaker C:Everyone is gonna be able to creatively express themselves.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:The other thing which is a concern is that not everyone is that good at it.
Speaker C:So, you know, so there's gonna be a lot of stuff out there that's not that good.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker C:Yeah, I do.
Speaker C:I do get a little bit concerned about how people are going to live their life as time goes on, because our humanness is going to be obviously the key.
Speaker C:And then how do we.
Speaker C:How we express and how we connect.
Speaker C:That's at the moment.
Speaker C:It's the beginning of something brand new.
Speaker A:Yes, it is.
Speaker A:Sure.
Speaker C:And everything will be fine.
Speaker C:I'm sure everything will be fine.
Speaker C:But everything's going to be really different.
Speaker A:It is going to be different.
Speaker A:But if you would be willing to.
Speaker A:I know creativity is something really important to you.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:You've written books on the matter.
Speaker A:You know, you're interested in it.
Speaker A:And in a wide variety of ways.
Speaker A:Take us back to your creative self when you were younger.
Speaker A:And how did that evolve?
Speaker A:What did it mean to you?
Speaker C:I think about this quite a lot in that.
Speaker C:In a sort of physical expression.
Speaker C:Am I creative?
Speaker C:Am I actually creative?
Speaker C:And I'm not.
Speaker C:I'm not.
Speaker C:I don't know.
Speaker C:I mean, I was a drummer.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And it's a pretty good drummer.
Speaker C:And Nick's a drummer.
Speaker C:Good on you, Nick.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Why are you saying it in past tense?
Speaker A:Surely you still have.
Speaker C:Well, once.
Speaker C:Once you are.
Speaker C:Then obviously it is somewhat like riding a bike.
Speaker C:Although I did HSC percussion and what I didn't realise, and I have to say, I think the school let me down somewhat here, James.
Speaker C:When it was exam time, I'd never performed in front of people that were examining me and I knew my pieces like I knew them and I turned up to perform and the three people that were sitting in front of me were sitting there stony faced with no interest in who I am, what I am.
Speaker A:You couldn't feed off them at all.
Speaker C:There was no feeding off them and I crashed and burned.
Speaker C:So the performance was really bad.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker C:And, you know, and I, and obviously I regret it to this day, you know, I would have loved to have brained the.
Speaker A:So this was a Sliding doors moment for you, was it?
Speaker C:Definitely, definitely a sliding doors moment.
Speaker C:And I sort of wanted to be a musician.
Speaker C:I was, I was quite keen on the idea of being a musician.
Speaker C:You know, I was in a couple of bands and I, and I, you know, thoroughly enjoyed it and all forms of music really.
Speaker C:And it was very interesting.
Speaker C:I said to my father, you know, probably in year 12, you know, I'm thinking about, you know, being a musician and he looks at me, goes, what are you talking about?
Speaker C:Like, seriously, he, he really steered me off that as a notion, which has always been a mystery to me, given that, I mean, ultimately his core skill was art.
Speaker C:He's a good painter, my father, like, like good painter.
Speaker C:And he had an art gallery there for a period too.
Speaker C:So it was.
Speaker C:It sort of always intrigued me that he sort of steered me away from a creative passion.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So what did he steer you towards?
Speaker C:Being in business.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:And so that was just the safer option for him.
Speaker C:Well, or maybe he just, maybe he got it right, you know, so.
Speaker A:And, and you've done all right in that field.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Being in the, and being in the advertising business, you know, and when I think about my creative skill in that world, I'm okay at advertising.
Speaker C:I mean, I can write an ad and sort of the.
Speaker C:When we were at our best, the agency, one agency in particular, we were seriously good.
Speaker C:And the sort of the loose rule was I'd say, here's my idea, do better than that and invariably people will do better than that.
Speaker C:I can sort of do it.
Speaker C:I can do one plus one equals two.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Sort of with relative ease and quite quickly.
Speaker C:But, you know, the extra bit, I'm not necessarily there, but what I am good at, and this is something which, you know, I happily say now I'm 60, what I am good at is Creating the environment for creativity to do well.
Speaker A:Interesting.
Speaker C:And I'm good at selling it.
Speaker A:But you don't give yourself the credit of being a creative, necessarily.
Speaker C:By definition, I am in that I've got great empathy for it and I can see.
Speaker C:I believe I've got a good eye.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker C:So whether that's.
Speaker C:I don't know.
Speaker C:I'm not sure whether that is, strictly speaking, creative.
Speaker C:I do have a good eye, I think.
Speaker A:I.
Speaker A:As you're saying this, what it conjures for me is having a rich inner world.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And being passionate about a range of things is conducive for kind of creative thinking.
Speaker C:Yes, no doubt.
Speaker A:Which is how you come across to me.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:It's like just passionate and interested and your mind's going here and there and jumping around, like.
Speaker A:Is that what you were like when you were younger as well?
Speaker C:Definitely.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And although it's quite.
Speaker C:It's quite interesting that if you look at my.
Speaker C:I saw my score report from a younger boy not that long ago, and I didn't realize that I was really clever, you know, as a young kid at school, because then I didn't really perform very well in senior school.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:So at a.
Speaker C:At an academic level, why not?
Speaker C:Well, probably.
Speaker C:I mean, I can blame the disruption of my parents breaking up.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:And I think that that would have had a role.
Speaker A:And that happened when you were how old?
Speaker C:Thirteen.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:So prior to the breakup.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:How would you have described home beforehand?
Speaker C:Great.
Speaker C:Yeah, very.
Speaker C:I had a very happy young childhood.
Speaker C:I mean, I do remember my mum sort of, you know, losing a nut.
Speaker C:A dad.
Speaker C:Can you please clean the shed?
Speaker C:You know, because she likes things to be neat and tidy and perfect, like, literally perfect.
Speaker C:She didn't iron the bed to ensure that the sheets were, you know, speak and Spam, but pretty close.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:You know, she'd ironed the jocks, so she was.
Speaker C:And to this day, she runs a.
Speaker C:She runs her household 88 years of age, like that.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:It's.
Speaker C:There is a strict regime and my father was a little looser than that, you know, and he loses keys every day.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And you've gotta be wired in a particular way to understand that.
Speaker C:That's just okay.
Speaker C:And so I think a bit of that was, you know, annoying.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:That seems very, very shallow.
Speaker C:But that's the st.
Speaker C:In the main, I felt safe and secure and very happy.
Speaker C:And in particular with my mother's parents, Bam and Poppa, as they were known as.
Speaker C:They were great to me.
Speaker C:My grandfather in particular, Ernest.
Speaker C:And he had a very big effect on me to this day.
Speaker C:He has a big effect on me.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So was he at your home much?
Speaker C:Not so much at our place.
Speaker C:I was at their place a lot.
Speaker C:You know, I'd finish school and go to their place where my grandmother would be sitting on the couch having a Benson and Edges.
Speaker C:And then my grandfather would come home and he'd like a whiskey, and I spent a lot of time pouring him whiskies.
Speaker C:He had quite a few, although I never saw.
Speaker C:I never thought that he was, you know, anything other than just, you know, delightful.
Speaker C:And he genuinely was absolutely delightful.
Speaker C:At his 80th birthday.
Speaker C:I gave the speech at his 80th birthday as, like a 15 year old.
Speaker C:And that was actually another, you know, really critical moment.
Speaker A:How so?
Speaker C:Well, I was very nervous.
Speaker C:I didn't know what I was going to do.
Speaker C:My father did try and help me, and I didn't like the fact that he was trying to help me because I felt like I was my own man.
Speaker C:You know, I can do whatever I want, but I didn't have any clues about what to do.
Speaker C:And so then I just went out and did it.
Speaker C:So I just did it spontaneously, emotionally spontaneously, and it worked.
Speaker C:So there's good and bad about that.
Speaker C:The.
Speaker C:The good being that it was good.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker C:The bad being that you can.
Speaker C:You think you can get away with that.
Speaker A:I taught you.
Speaker A:That works.
Speaker A:I. I remember this happening to me in high school.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:This actually reminds me of you when you say that.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:I used to be a very disciplined, hard worker, prepared.
Speaker A:Until I went to.
Speaker A:We both went to Melbourne High.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Wonderful school.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker A:You know, they push you.
Speaker A:You're surrounded by people who value working hard.
Speaker C:Yep.
Speaker A:But they also value working hard at the very last minute and getting away with it.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:But.
Speaker A:Well, if you would, Russ, I'd like to go back to.
Speaker A:You were telling us around 13, that definitive moment when mum and dad split.
Speaker C:Yep.
Speaker A:Things have been going along fine.
Speaker A:As you said.
Speaker A:You noticed Mum and dad are a bit different then.
Speaker A:That happens.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Tell us about that defining moment.
Speaker C:Well, it.
Speaker C:It was.
Speaker C:And, you know, in a way, still is, which is really, I think, one of the things which is true, I reckon.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:You do get scarred by it.
Speaker C:And I think that that was an era where they were.
Speaker C:I don't know whether the mum and dads of that era really put a lot of effort into making sure the kids were gonna be okay.
Speaker C:I think these days they do.
Speaker C:You know, there's very clear.
Speaker C:I mean, Certainly the parents that I've seen that, you know, this has happened, they put a lot of effort into making sure the kids are okay and is always the way.
Speaker C:The stats will tell us that this is true.
Speaker C:It's the.
Speaker C:It's the wife that leaves the husband, which.
Speaker C:Which I've just had enough.
Speaker C:So that's.
Speaker C:That's what happened.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:So I came home one day and my mum wasn't there.
Speaker C:And that was.
Speaker C:That was quite unusual.
Speaker C:I mean, as far as my memory serves, she was at home every time I got home, you know, pre mobile phone, of course.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:And so mum in the household was very much what I was used to.
Speaker C:And then all of a sudden she wasn't.
Speaker C:And then my father, whose mothering skills, you know, I don't know that we'd even give him a mark out of 10, really.
Speaker C:Like he had no clue.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:You know, I don't think I'd ever seen him cook, let alone clean, let alone, you know, make a perfectly crisp bed.
Speaker A:So how did you manage?
Speaker C:Well, the first thing that he did was he bought me a doona.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:Cause they're easier to make, you know.
Speaker C:And again, that was that unbelievably profound memory that all of a sudden I was sleeping in a different.
Speaker C:You know, it wasn't the cocoon of those tight sheets, which I do remember very fondly.
Speaker C:You know, big part of growing up, the security of those tight sheets.
Speaker C:It's weird, isn't it?
Speaker A:There's something about them, isn't there?
Speaker A:The way they kind of hold you in.
Speaker A:We know this as well because our mum is a.
Speaker A:Well, was a nurse and famously like.
Speaker C:Oh, yeah.
Speaker B:Oh, yeah.
Speaker A:Recognized hospital grade tightness.
Speaker C:I know, right?
Speaker C:Well, I married a nurse and, yeah, hospital grade tightness.
Speaker C:Magnificent.
Speaker C:Anyway, so as small as that sounds, it was actually quite a big thing.
Speaker C:So then dad and I are rattling around in the family home in Malvern.
Speaker C:And so that was odd.
Speaker C:It genuinely was strange.
Speaker C:And then what to do.
Speaker C:And then my relationship with my mother, I didn't really know what to do.
Speaker C:And I also think there's a critical thing, you know, if you read the, you know, Biddulph raising boys, you know, so I read that when I had boys, you know, when you turn 13, it's sort of when you don't need your mother anymore, you know, or you think you don't.
Speaker A:Not as much.
Speaker C:Not as much.
Speaker A:You actually need them desperately.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:But you sort of feel you fit.
Speaker C:You feel like, okay, now I'm 13, you know, going into senior school.
Speaker C:You know, so you sort of, I think all that, although that played a role in just what, in how, how it played out and how it played out wasn't very good for my mum, you know, it really wasn't.
Speaker C:And you know, I regret it to this day in that I wasn't very nice to her for quite a long period of time and.
Speaker A:And you blamed her.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:And I don't, I sort of, in a way I can understand how I got there and I do remember my mum saying to me at the time, don't worry darling, you'll understand one day.
Speaker C:And the truth is I do and I don't blame her.
Speaker C:When I was a young, in my early 20s and I was overseas and I rang her up, you know, and just said to her, I now understand mum, you know, so that probably, probably took a decade.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker B:It's beautiful that you can look back.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:These pre cup though, when you talk about your mum's perfectionism and the standards, obviously your dad didn't meet those standards but I'm wondering how it impacted her parenting as well.
Speaker B:Do you feel like she had high standards for you?
Speaker C:Ah, that's a good question.
Speaker C:No, I don't know that she had high standards for me but she absolutely expects me to do well.
Speaker C:So I don't know.
Speaker C:What's that mean?
Speaker B:You know, did you feel the expectation?
Speaker C:No, no.
Speaker B:So that didn't play into your decision at 13 to go with dad?
Speaker C:No, no, no.
Speaker C:That's quite interesting.
Speaker A:Was it your decision to stay with dad?
Speaker C:Yeah, it was, yeah.
Speaker C:And I, I, and again that's quite strange in a way that it was left up to me but I don't know that they felt that they had any choice because I think I was quite strong willed.
Speaker C:I think I was, you know, my memory of it is I was quite insistent on what I was going to do.
Speaker C:I also think part of it was just being supportive of my father.
Speaker C:I think I might have instinctively known that my dad might have needed me.
Speaker C:Now maybe that's me being a bit ott, but mum was always going to be fine.
Speaker A:Oh.
Speaker A:Given what you said, I can imagine you having to step up to kind of be a parent of sorts, trying.
Speaker C:To be helpful and you know, and mum was always going to be fine and you know, to this day she's a very independent cat and strong, you know, gentle and strong.
Speaker C:You know, these are good things to be right and.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:So maybe I, maybe I felt that that was, everything was going to be okay for her.
Speaker C:I think that might have Played a role and also.
Speaker C:But then my father and I, we were good friends, and we became very good friends, you know, so as time went on, and then my father remarried and then.
Speaker C:And I lived with.
Speaker C:She's known as Elizabeth ii, rather amusingly, my mother being Elizabeth I.
Speaker C:So Elizabeth ii and, you know, and I moved in with Elizabeth, the second two kids, and she, to this day, is still a great stepmom to me and a big part of our life.
Speaker C:She's been really incredible.
Speaker C:And her family, her broader family, they welcomed me into their world and they became a. I'm getting sort of all.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's emotional, isn't it?
Speaker C:They became a big part of my life.
Speaker C:And so there was an upside.
Speaker C:There's an upside.
Speaker A:You know, there is.
Speaker C:And genuinely an upside in that.
Speaker C:In that family.
Speaker C:So Elizabeth ii, known as.
Speaker C:Shush.
Speaker C:That's that.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:No, right.
Speaker B:It gets better.
Speaker C:Yeah, I know, right.
Speaker C:They are amazing people.
Speaker C:Amazing, generous, decent people.
Speaker C:And so they became a part of my life.
Speaker C:To this day, they are a part of my life, you know, and, you know, I love them, so there's some good that came out of that.
Speaker A:So if we're thinking about your trajectory, your development through those years, you said things weren't great for a while after you were 13.
Speaker A:What did you mean by that?
Speaker C:Well, I was.
Speaker C:Well, I sort of lost my way at school, really.
Speaker C:You know, I finished up getting caned, you know, and I love.
Speaker C:Yeah, I love school.
Speaker C:I was a big participant in school, but, you know, got a little.
Speaker C:Got a little, you know, loose.
Speaker C:Yeah, a little difficult, probably.
Speaker C:Difficult.
Speaker C:Probably difficult to do.
Speaker A:Rebelling a bit.
Speaker A:This was your rebellious period?
Speaker C:Yeah, I suppose.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:You know, but then, you know, I mean, in the end, I was pretty straight.
Speaker C:By the end, you know, I was sort of, you know, a bit of a dag in the end, in terms of.
Speaker C:I sort of saw myself as a leader.
Speaker C:Almost embarrassed to say that, in a way, which is weird.
Speaker C:I saw my.
Speaker C:I saw myself as a leader and wanted to act like a leader.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:And.
Speaker C:And I always felt that's what I would be.
Speaker C:Never felt I'd be anything other than a leader.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:But I probably went through a little period there where I wasn't sure what I was going to lead, you know, so that.
Speaker A:That innate sense, that's what you want kids to have, right?
Speaker A:To grow up with that sense of, I can and I can do it.
Speaker A:Definitely.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So what would you attribute that to?
Speaker A:Did you just sort of naturally have that, or do you think it was because of your Family or what was the source of that confidence, do you think?
Speaker C:There's a few things.
Speaker C:Well, another sort of profound moment.
Speaker C:My father's uncle, when he died, he had a state funeral.
Speaker C:He.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:So Sir Norman Martin.
Speaker C:And so I remember very well going to his state funeral and thinking, I wouldn't mind one of these, you know,.
Speaker A:Sort of, I think you're on track, so there's a good chance.
Speaker A:Oh yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:So I, I.
Speaker C:And then I was always interested in leadership, you know, and the house I was in at school was called Monash.
Speaker C:And I've always followed, you know, Sir John Monash.
Speaker C:You know, I've read a lot about him and you know, just admire him.
Speaker C:Most of the books that I read are about individuals like that and admire those things.
Speaker C:I've always had a sort of a, I've enjoyed stories of success actually.
Speaker C:And then, you know, my grandfather on my mother's side.
Speaker C:Success, successful man, you know, not massively successful, but successful.
Speaker C:And so that played a role.
Speaker A:He had some good role models.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:And he would say things to me right from a very young age.
Speaker C:It doesn't matter what you do, Russ, just make sure, you just make sure you're the best.
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:And it's pretty good advice.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:You know, like the notion of it doesn't matter what you are or what you do, just make sure you're the best.
Speaker C:You're going to, you're going to probably carve out a pretty good life.
Speaker C:And I've always wanted to carve out a pretty good life.
Speaker C:I, yeah, I've had a, I think strong work ethic.
Speaker C:Yeah, I do, I think that, that, I'm not sure where that came from.
Speaker B:Do you think you had that work ethic before the split or was it part of that?
Speaker C:Definitely.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:No, there was a very strong notion that you work well.
Speaker C:I was the chemist, round boy, you know, aged, gosh, I don't know, 10, 11.
Speaker C:I started a union, chemist boy union.
Speaker C:Lost my job.
Speaker C:This is the, this is the era of union.
Speaker C:Because Bob Hawke was the head of the actu.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:So he was this sort of amazing leader that you'd watch on the telly.
Speaker C:Jeez, he's impressive, man.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker C:And so I started a chemist boy union.
Speaker C:Cause we got paid a dollar a day.
Speaker C:I didn't think that was enough.
Speaker C:And one of the jobs was getting drugs and burning them in the incinerator out the back of the pharmacy.
Speaker C:And I thought, and I just said, is that a good thing for 10 year old boys to be Doing anyway, it was half fun.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Half serious.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Good on you.
Speaker A:So that work ethic, I mean, obviously that's been.
Speaker A:You've done so much in your life, but a strong work ethic doesn't necessarily reflect, you know, liking ourselves or we can sometimes work hard to try and kind of reach some sense of liking ourselves.
Speaker A:What do you remember about that?
Speaker A:Like your kind of story of your self confidence or your self image?
Speaker C:I was definitely, I was definitely very self confident until a period where I wasn't, which, which was I think a direct result of my parents breaking up.
Speaker C:Then I faked it for quite a few.
Speaker C:For quite a period.
Speaker A:During your teenage years.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And I would suggest to you it's only really in the last decade that I've found refound the high level of self confidence.
Speaker C:I've still got some self doubt.
Speaker C:Some.
Speaker C:I mean, there's a thing which fathers must never say, which is don't believe your own bullshit.
Speaker C:Now my father used to say that to me all the time and it's not a good thing.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:I didn't and I understood why he said it.
Speaker C:And I think that that's an era.
Speaker C:That's an era where that's what dads would say, you know, settle down, son.
Speaker C:You know, settle down.
Speaker A:You get ahead of yourself.
Speaker C:Don't get ahead of yourself.
Speaker C:Don't believe your own.
Speaker B:And because that might not go well for you in the world if you.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Too much confidence is that it's.
Speaker C:It's bizarre.
Speaker C:I mean, like, actually, what is the point of.
Speaker C:Act of.
Speaker C:Why do you say that?
Speaker C:Why?
Speaker A:That's the tall puppy syndrome.
Speaker A:It's really endemic here, isn't it?
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C:And so.
Speaker C:And I would still suggest that I have that there, that's in there.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And I know we all have imposter syndrome.
Speaker C:I understand, I understand.
Speaker C:But I do feel like if I hadn't have had a fair bit of baggage around there, who knows what would have happened?
Speaker A:What do you mean by that?
Speaker A:What baggage?
Speaker C:Just this holding yourself back.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:Holding yourself back and not absolutely going for it, you know.
Speaker C:And yes, I have had some great successes, but I have to tell you, there's quite a number of sliding door moments where I probably should have done the bigger thing in a life sense.
Speaker C:It's not, you know, I'm not talking about risk in a physical sense.
Speaker C:I've taken a safer option rather than actually just taking a very big leap, you know, where, for example, I. I've had people wanting to fund me to, you know, go embark on a particular Route.
Speaker C:And I haven't done it because.
Speaker C:Well, why, you know, would you call it a regret?
Speaker C:Nearly not really, because the other decisions have been good.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:So I don't feel like, as a result, you know, things haven't, you know, panned out as they could.
Speaker B:But it is your father's voice on the shoulder telling you, yeah, stay in your track.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Or just don't get ahead of yourself.
Speaker C:Whereas if I, If I had my mother's voice, she'd be saying, yeah, go for it, darling.
Speaker C:You know, so.
Speaker C:And I haven't really ever.
Speaker C:I mean, my mother, My mother still to this day says that she doesn't really know enough about what I've done, you know, my life and career.
Speaker C:Because weirdly, I haven't really had those conversations with her.
Speaker C:And why not?
Speaker C:Well, precisely.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Why not?
Speaker C:You know, I'd love to have a chat to your mum about X, Y, Z decision.
Speaker C:I've told her what I've.
Speaker C:What's happened, you know, Mum, by the way, I'm, you know, you'll be really pleased to hear that I'm on the board of the Melbourne Footy Club, you know, and, you know, she's thrilled, but I haven't had the pre.
Speaker C:Conversation.
Speaker C:What do you think?
Speaker C:So I don't know whether.
Speaker C:Boy, did boys do that with their mums.
Speaker C:Maybe some do.
Speaker C:I don't know.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:That's interesting.
Speaker A:But I don't want to read too much into it.
Speaker A:That's not.
Speaker A:Because there were those years where you guys were a bit apart from one another and that got out of sync.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:With sharing your inner world, maybe.
Speaker C:I think getting out of sync is a good way to put it.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Because, you know, I mean, poor old Mum, you know, it got to the point where.
Speaker C:And, you know, probably all mums do this, you know, you're in the car, they're driving you somewhere, that's the moment they choose that moment, you're having sex.
Speaker C:Auntie Russell,.
Speaker A:What did you say?
Speaker C:Yes, Mum, yes.
Speaker A:Now pull over.
Speaker A:That would be one of those awkward memories that I would be vocalizing later like, shit.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker C:Protected, I hope.
Speaker A:Yeah, Actually, important question.
Speaker A:So good on her for asking.
Speaker C:Precisely.
Speaker C:You know, it wasn't being asked in the household that I was in anyway, so.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:So, yes, good on her.
Speaker C:I agree.
Speaker B:That dynamic is so interesting, though, the fact that you talk about that little separation and yet it's her voice that you think of when you want to be bold and take the self confidence step.
Speaker B:Like, she clearly believed in you, fostered that independence.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:No question that.
Speaker C:That's true.
Speaker C:And her father as well.
Speaker C:And I sort of see them as being one and the same.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:And there's also a big part of that influence was I went to the UK with an idea to get a job.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:How old are you now?
Speaker C:22.
Speaker A:Okay.
Speaker C:23.
Speaker C:22.
Speaker C:23.
Speaker C:And I did that because of my grandfather, you know, because he did the same thing.
Speaker C:You know, he.
Speaker C: oat and went to the UK in the: Speaker C:So that was always a life story that I grew up with.
Speaker C:And so in a way, you know, I had to do the same thing.
Speaker A:Pilgrimage.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Such was the.
Speaker C:I mean, a significant impact he had on me and my mum was very encouraging of that.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker B:You know, but you sound fiercely independent, driven.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Yeah, I know I was.
Speaker C:And you know, probably part of my parents splitting up probably really doubled down on that as well.
Speaker C:Yeah, I. I have, I am determined.
Speaker A:So there's a good that came out of it.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And.
Speaker C:And yes, the independence.
Speaker C:Determined, most definitely.
Speaker C:And wanting to run my own race, create my.
Speaker C:And create my own family as well,.
Speaker A:You know, it's a tricky balance, isn't it?
Speaker A:Because we want.
Speaker A:We want our kids to feel safe and loved, no doubt.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:But a little bit of discomfort creates resilience and strength, for sure.
Speaker C:For sure.
Speaker C:I don't know that I would advocate that sort of discomfort.
Speaker C:I genuinely.
Speaker C:Look, I don't know how kids are now, but I wouldn't wish it upon my children.
Speaker C:Thankfully, that isn't, you know.
Speaker C:Well, I suppose it has turned a tango.
Speaker C:Kate might have different ideas, but.
Speaker C:No, we've got a very happy marriage and I think the kids can see that.
Speaker C:Which is pretty important, isn't it?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Your kids are grown ups now.
Speaker A:They are.
Speaker C:Claudia's married and Charlie and Louis.
Speaker B:I heard a rumour that you named a child after an ex girlfriend.
Speaker C:Yeah, that's true.
Speaker B:That is true.
Speaker B:Well, what is going on?
Speaker C:Well, she wasn't really a girlfriend.
Speaker C:I mean, it was an ex crush.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Was she the one that attacked you in the pool?
Speaker A:Is that the girl?
Speaker C:No, she was, she was.
Speaker B:She's the one you spoke to your mum about in the car.
Speaker C:No.
Speaker C:So this is a.
Speaker C:She was an exotic.
Speaker C:She was an exotic German girl.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker C:When we're in London.
Speaker C:I was actually in London when the.
Speaker C:When the wall came down in Berlin and Claudia said to me, come on, let's go to Berlin.
Speaker C:And she was a German, you know, aristocrat.
Speaker C:And I said, I don't think I can.
Speaker C:And there was one seat left on the British Airways flight, but it was business class and I very foolishly didn't buy it.
Speaker C:I didn't have the money.
Speaker A:Another sliding doors money.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Anyway, Claudia, she did go and she was a great friend.
Speaker C:And then the fun story of that is I have a daughter Claudia, and I used to go to New York a lot for work and so she did her vce and I said to Claudia, why don't you come with me?
Speaker C:So after, straight after the exams, then we're at the JFK airport.
Speaker C:I was telling my daughter Claudia about this Claudia person and then who walks past me at the JFK airport.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker C:Seriously.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker A:And how many years later is that?
Speaker C:Well, that's 25 years later.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah, maybe 20 something years later.
Speaker B:So you hadn't tracked her down and organized this event?
Speaker C:No, I hadn't.
Speaker C:And then, and then we kicked off and where we left off, which was in the bar anyway.
Speaker A:Yeah, very good.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:So that is true.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:And then, and then Charlie, Charlie, he's got an agency and Louis an artist.
Speaker C:So all three of them.
Speaker C:Claudia's a beautiful graphic designer.
Speaker C:Really?
Speaker C:I think one of the things which I do think I'm pretty good at is what's instinctively the right answer in a creative and commercial sense.
Speaker C:Yes, I think I've got a good feel for that.
Speaker C:Yeah, she's got that by a multiple of about 10.
Speaker C:And the lucky, the lucky girl is then able to actually physically express it as well.
Speaker C:So she's very, very commercially very creative.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:Charlie, of course musician and he's got his own agency.
Speaker C:And I got to say he's got the instinct for the, for the thing as well.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Very good, very honest person.
Speaker C:Yeah, he has a lot of integrity.
Speaker A:Charlie sound very proud of them.
Speaker C:I am.
Speaker C:And then Louis, and Louis, a dead set artist.
Speaker C:He, he is someone who can't stop.
Speaker C:You know, if he's, he'll be composing music and then he'll be taught himself how to sew.
Speaker C:So he'll then sew shirts and then he'll do paintings.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker C:Like non stop creative guy.
Speaker C:So, you know, good luck to him too.
Speaker B:So fair to say you've not passed on the same message that your dad did then.
Speaker C:Well, exactly.
Speaker C:And you know what, I think this is a good point.
Speaker C:Maybe I've over indexed the other way.
Speaker C:Yeah, you know, maybe.
Speaker A:Doesn't sound like it.
Speaker C:I don't know, you know, it's like, oh yeah, that's a, that's a great idea.
Speaker C:We love talking about ideas.
Speaker C:In our house, I mean, you know, like it's non stop.
Speaker C:It's just.
Speaker C:And I mean my view on ideas, they're all good, right?
Speaker C:They're all good until they prove themselves not to be good.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:But they should be.
Speaker C:You should like great idea.
Speaker C:Let's see, you know, let's talk about it.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker A:But it sounds like you've balanced the lovely encouragement of follow your passions with the work ethic.
Speaker A:Like it's both, they're both in there.
Speaker C:Yeah, they, they, yeah, it's nice.
Speaker C:They actually all do work hard.
Speaker C:Most definitely.
Speaker C:They work hard and I think enjoy it.
Speaker C:That's the impression I get.
Speaker C:Yeah, I think they do.
Speaker A:I want to ask you about playfulness and childlike wonder.
Speaker A:I found out today via my wife that you're a Yo yo champion.
Speaker C:And.
Speaker A:Also might like science fiction, among other things.
Speaker A:You know, tell me about childlike wonder and yo yos and playfulness and how important that is.
Speaker C:Well, I did love the yo yo.
Speaker C:That's true.
Speaker C:I did love it.
Speaker C:Still to this day, if there was one here, I just, I would, you know, thrillingly get a hold of it and just enjoyed it.
Speaker C:The science fiction thing is interesting in that I did a speech at the town hall about the book that changed me, I think is what they were talking about.
Speaker C:And it was Isaac Asimov's Nine Tomorrows from Isaac.
Speaker C:And it's not that I'm necessarily a massive on Isaac Asimov, but the ideas in that book have stayed with me forever and they profound ideas, you know.
Speaker C:Yeah, it had a big effect on me.
Speaker C: you know, Brave New World and: Speaker C:And I don't know if those books are read to this day at schools.
Speaker C:They should be things like understanding what totalitarianism looks like.
Speaker A:That's not relevant to today's world, is it?
Speaker C:Right, exactly.
Speaker C:Knowing.
Speaker C:Knowing what to be worried about.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:You know, Brave New World.
Speaker C:That was a big book, wasn't it?
Speaker C:I mean, do you.
Speaker C:Was that at school with you guys?
Speaker A: We studied: Speaker C:84, Definitely did.
Speaker B:Orwell.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:I mean, gee whiz, 84.
Speaker C:That has a big effect on you, doesn't it?
Speaker A:Sure does.
Speaker C:And so I like society.
Speaker C:I like looking at the shape of society and what's going on and how to affect it and you know, and I like geopolitics.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:You know, the shape of big things.
Speaker A:So less about the playfulness of sci fi and the imagination, more the how do we understand ourselves better.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And yeah.
Speaker C:And the Ideas.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:And how they then manifest themselves.
Speaker A:Are you familiar with Black Mirror?
Speaker C:I've only watched one episode and I know I'd like it.
Speaker B:Was it the first one?
Speaker B:And did it turn you off?
Speaker B:Is that what happened?
Speaker C:No, it's just I'm not that good at sticking at things on the telly, you know.
Speaker C:What?
Speaker C:My entire adult life, I've barely watched television.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's very interesting.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:Barely watched it.
Speaker C:It's funny, right?
Speaker B:Is it partly because you're too busy, you're just working away?
Speaker C:Working, yeah.
Speaker C:Anything beyond the news?
Speaker C:I mean, you know, I used to run channel 10 and it was somewhat embarrassing to say to my colleagues at Channel 10, I've never watched an episode of the Simpsons.
Speaker A:Yeah, right, right.
Speaker C:Never.
Speaker C:And, you know, I was living in the UK when it launched and it was massive, but, you know, I was off doing other things.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:Would you say then your work ethic is not so much a choice, it's just a habit at this point?
Speaker B:Like, it's a bit of compul.
Speaker C:Yes, it's compulsive.
Speaker C:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker C:I'm not.
Speaker C:I'm not.
Speaker C:I'm not that good at doing nothing.
Speaker B:Have you tried?
Speaker C:Yeah, and I'm getting better at it and I. I sort of try and practice it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:But I don't know.
Speaker C:I'm not big on wasting.
Speaker C:I mean, you know, I don't know.
Speaker C:I. I just don't like the.
Speaker C:I don't like being idle.
Speaker C:Maybe the only thing that I like being idle at is watching cricket.
Speaker A:Yeriki.
Speaker A:That's nice.
Speaker C:It's probably it.
Speaker A:Is it that idea that infused early that if you're going to do something, be the best at it?
Speaker A:Does that still drive you?
Speaker C:Yep.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Why?
Speaker A:Who are you trying to impress?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Can you slow down now?
Speaker A:You've done a lot.
Speaker C:I don't know.
Speaker C:Who am I trying to impress?
Speaker C:Just myself, I suppose.
Speaker C:I don't even feel like I get impressed.
Speaker C:I don't.
Speaker C:It's sort of.
Speaker C:It's funny, isn't it?
Speaker A:No.
Speaker A:I absolutely understand the value, the time we have and use it the best you can, you know.
Speaker A:I have a strong feeling of that in my own life.
Speaker A:I know what I like to do now and I want to do it as much as possible with the people I love.
Speaker C:Exactly.
Speaker A:Is that yours?
Speaker A:Your mission?
Speaker C:It's a really good question.
Speaker C:Is that my mission?
Speaker C:My.
Speaker C:I don't know.
Speaker C:Is that my mission?
Speaker C:I don't.
Speaker C:I don't actually think like that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:I just care for society.
Speaker C:It's sort of.
Speaker C:It's sort of weird in a way.
Speaker C:I don't know how to explain it.
Speaker C:I'm not that interested in myself.
Speaker C:I'm very interested in the shape of things.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:So you've almost got it zoomed out.
Speaker A:Kind of looking at the bigger picture approach to your existence.
Speaker C:I like to influence it.
Speaker C:I do.
Speaker C:I can't help but dive into like if there's something going on, I'm very fortunate that has become a truth.
Speaker C:And so yeah, I do do a bit of that.
Speaker C:Just try and influence and influence the shape of things.
Speaker B:What you were just talking about then really caught my attention.
Speaker B:And this isn't a well formed thought but I want to run it by you because obviously you're talking about a lack of introspection or a lack of interest in introspection because you want to analyze, you want to engage and you're so active.
Speaker B:What about the argument that being more introspective, understanding yourself more is going to help you diagnose?
Speaker B:So I get caught up with inaction.
Speaker B:I probably go way too far in the other direction.
Speaker B:Never end up doing anything.
Speaker B:I really admire your work ethic and your confidence to get in and do something.
Speaker B:But I am held up by this idea that introspection and self awareness is going to reveal more wisdom and be able to analyze better.
Speaker B:How do you respond to that?
Speaker C:Well, I love that.
Speaker C:And the reality is that you need a bit of you and a bit of me is where that's, you know, that's a good sweet spot.
Speaker B:Probably just more of you.
Speaker B:I just.
Speaker B:I just wanted to throw it against you.
Speaker C:No, no, I need.
Speaker C:I need a bit of you.
Speaker C:Many years ago I was at a leaders event and we all did the Myers Briggs, you know, and I was sort of extreme, like off the page in one space.
Speaker A:Openness to experience and something.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And they paired us with.
Speaker C:We had to go off in pairs and I was paired with this bloke who was right.
Speaker C:In a completely another spot.
Speaker C:Like the opposite extreme.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:We were paired and this fellow would not move unless he knew what was going to happen.
Speaker C:Like frozen.
Speaker C:Whereas I just took a step.
Speaker C:And so it was a very important moment.
Speaker C:Back to sort of critical moments in that I recognized that he was as valuable to the corporate.
Speaker C:The corporate machine that we were in as I was.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:So whereas prior to that experience I would have been somewhat dismissive of him.
Speaker C:But actually seeing what he brings to the show, I. E. Let's plan this out.
Speaker C:Let's have a good think before we actually make any Moves.
Speaker C:Let's make sure their moves are going to be the right moves and then, Russ, can you come and help me make those moves?
Speaker C:That's good.
Speaker C:So I have.
Speaker C:I have respect for, you know, reflection and ensuring that you're thinking these things through.
Speaker C:I just find it hard.
Speaker C:Yeah, I do.
Speaker C:I find it hard.
Speaker C:I am a. I trust my.
Speaker A:Instinct.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:I suppose that that's the reality.
Speaker A:I'm far more aligned with you.
Speaker A:We have that same kind of tension.
Speaker A:Like Nick's the.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:The thoughtful.
Speaker A:He'll hold back, he'll really think and then prepare, whereas older stuff.
Speaker B:But it leads to great inaction and indecision.
Speaker B:So it's not a strength at all times.
Speaker B:Like I really.
Speaker B:I'm curious and impressed by the opposite.
Speaker C:No, but look at the business you've create.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:So you've created a bit.
Speaker C:I haven't created this.
Speaker C:So you've created an amazing business because.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:You're thoughtful and you reflect and you make a move when you know the move is going to work, whereas I'll make a move hoping it'll work and trusting my skill to make it work.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:They're two different things.
Speaker C:So good on you, I'd say.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's lovely.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I had to drag him into doing this podcast, though.
Speaker A:Russell, he was a little bit tentative, but I'm glad he did it.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker B:Well, you know, it should be about Russell here, not about me.
Speaker C:But.
Speaker B:Yeah, it is, it is that thing of trying to just give things a go.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:Live with the results.
Speaker B:And that's.
Speaker B:That's hard for the perfectionist tendency to.
Speaker B:To take that step.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And doesn't mean that I'm not nervous.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:So when I'm deciding to go and do X. Yeah.
Speaker C:It doesn't matter as rock in.
Speaker C:You know, I. I'll be very nervous and I'll be very anxious and I mean, when I started doing radio, I don't think I've ever said this publicly.
Speaker C:When I started doing radio, I actually was grinding my teeth so badly I had to get one of them removed.
Speaker A:Oh, right.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:So, yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:So there was great, you know, tension, anxiety around in the end performing.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:So, yeah.
Speaker C:So maybe, maybe a bit of.
Speaker C:Maybe if I'd self reflected, maybe I.
Speaker C:Maybe I'd be okay with that tooth.
Speaker A:That's interesting.
Speaker A:So I'm curious because I think about the impact of my childhood a lot.
Speaker A:That won't surprise you as a child psychologist and it's obviously a core part of what we're doing here.
Speaker A:Do you do that much.
Speaker A:Do you think back to your beginning building blocks?
Speaker A:Yeah, a lot.
Speaker A:In what sense?
Speaker C:In that I reflect on the good bits in order to feel solid.
Speaker C:I've mentioned my grandfather quite a lot.
Speaker C:I would think of him most evenings, and I think of him in a very sort of.
Speaker C:In a very practical way.
Speaker C:So I imagine going into his front gate, and he'd be there cleaning his car with his mate.
Speaker C:And then I'd see him there in his garden.
Speaker C:He was a good gardener.
Speaker C:And I would help him with his garden.
Speaker C:And then I'd walk through the front door of his house and there he'd be sitting in his sunroom with his book, and I'd be there with him with his book.
Speaker C:And then he'd.
Speaker C:I'd walk through into the hallway, turn left into his chair that was beside the window, where he would have olives and a whiskey.
Speaker C:And I'm there having olives and a whiskey with him.
Speaker C:And then he'd go to his gramophone because he had 80 eights, 86s, isn't it?
Speaker A:45S.
Speaker C:And there was 45s.
Speaker C:33S.
Speaker A:33S, yeah.
Speaker A:So what's an 86?
Speaker C:Even faster.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:So this is the gramophone earlier.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:And he would play some Genie Krupa.
Speaker C:Anyway.
Speaker A:Such an evocative memory.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And I.
Speaker C:And I take my.
Speaker C:And I.
Speaker C:Most evenings I would take myself through that, and it's very.
Speaker C:I don't know.
Speaker A:What does it feel like?
Speaker C:Very comforting and very solid.
Speaker C:And I think it's very important for me, actually, just to.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:I don't know.
Speaker C:It's like.
Speaker C:It's a grounding thing, I suppose.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:But no, the.
Speaker C:That.
Speaker C:That walkthrough that I do.
Speaker C:Big, big part of.
Speaker C:Yeah, My.
Speaker A:That comfort routine.
Speaker B:I love that image.
Speaker A:Yeah, me too.
Speaker A:Yeah, you paint it really vividly.
Speaker C:And he was a good dresser, too.
Speaker C:Yeah, he was a good dresser.
Speaker A:So it's.
Speaker A:It's kind of like.
Speaker A:It's comforting and nostalgic, but it's a kind of inspirational thing about it, too.
Speaker A:Or aspirational, even.
Speaker C:It's aspirational.
Speaker C:Yeah, it is aspirational.
Speaker C:Because I've never been, you know, at a practical level, I'd like to be good at washing my car and.
Speaker C:And gardening and just sitting by the fire, reading a book.
Speaker C:I'd like to be much better at that than I am, you know.
Speaker C:So there's a bit of that going on as well.
Speaker B:This is who you want to be.
Speaker C:Yeah, I think there's a bit.
Speaker C:There is a Bit of that, most definitely.
Speaker A:So when does that start?
Speaker C:We'll see.
Speaker C:I don't think it's.
Speaker C:I don't think anytime soon.
Speaker A:You're not slowing down.
Speaker B:You can start with the car.
Speaker B:That sounds too.
Speaker C:I haven't even got a car.
Speaker C:I got rid of my car.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:I had.
Speaker C:I had this most beautiful.
Speaker C:Oh, my God.
Speaker C:Targa.
Speaker C:Porsche Targa.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:80, Early 80s.
Speaker C:I was with tartan interior.
Speaker C:Oh, my God.
Speaker C:And I very foolishly, I drove it at black tie.
Speaker C:I'm a black tie.
Speaker C:It's freshly shaved head.
Speaker C:And I went off to an award, you know, advertising award evening.
Speaker C:And very foolishly, of course, got in the car and drove it home and I blew 0.07.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:And to punish myself, I got rid of my car.
Speaker A:Oh, gosh.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:I couldn't believe that I was that stupid.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:You know, and that.
Speaker C:That, that genuinely is not me.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:And so, you know, and it was.
Speaker C:It would have been because I was very excited about myself, you know, and it sort of contributes to.
Speaker C:Don't get ahead of yourself.
Speaker C:And I did get ahead of myself.
Speaker C:You know, even the car, like, what am I doing with a car like that?
Speaker C:It's not really me, right?
Speaker C:But I loved it, but it wasn't really me.
Speaker C:And anyway, yes, I sold the car and I haven't had a car since.
Speaker C:And that's quite.
Speaker C:That's a long time ago now.
Speaker A:So how do you get around without a car?
Speaker C:I walk, I catch the tram, I catch the train.
Speaker C:I get a driver when I need a driver.
Speaker C:I.
Speaker C:So if I have had too many drinks, well, it's okay because I haven't got a car.
Speaker C:So sort of maybe part of it, like, just understanding what I. I was very good at getting parking fines and speeding fines and I was no good at the administration of the car.
Speaker C:Like, seriously, I'm just.
Speaker C:I'm way better off not to have one.
Speaker A:It's more efficient for you not to have one.
Speaker C:It's way more efficient for me.
Speaker A:That's very interesting.
Speaker C:Yeah, way more efficient.
Speaker C:And, you know, and.
Speaker C:And also, you know, kids.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:I've got young, the kids.
Speaker C:It's not that easy these days, you know, you can.
Speaker C:Okay, cost of living money, you know, my kid, maybe they need a hand getting a car.
Speaker C:I'm much happier to give.
Speaker C:I'm much happier to contribute to them having a car than having one myself.
Speaker C: ot that they've got a Porsche: Speaker C:Like, they've got a 90.
Speaker A:It sounds like there's something philosophical about it for you.
Speaker A:It's like it's become.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Infused in the way you live.
Speaker C:Yeah, it has, it has.
Speaker C:And, and happily so.
Speaker A:I visited the Abbey Road crossing a.
Speaker C:Couple of weeks ago.
Speaker C:Ah, how good.
Speaker A:The best, isn't it?
Speaker C:The best.
Speaker A:It was a pilgrimage for me and it was one of the most special things ever.
Speaker C:Oh, I was there not that long ago.
Speaker C:It's brilliant.
Speaker A:It's just there's magic about knowing that in that building.
Speaker A:What has happened in there?
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:And what was the day like?
Speaker A:Oh, it was.
Speaker A:Beautiful day.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:And it's, it's actually quite attractive around there, isn't it?
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:It's quite a beautiful part of London.
Speaker A:It is.
Speaker C:Tidy Lords.
Speaker C:Is it?
Speaker A:I don't know that.
Speaker A:I was driving from Bristol, so I'd had a big drive.
Speaker C:That is a big drive.
Speaker A:It is, yeah.
Speaker A:To get there.
Speaker A:But the reason I bring it up, I mean, I'd like to talk to you more about that since you're excited about it.
Speaker A:But Paul McCartney, as I learned, was getting the bus to the studio to record Abbey Road just because he just, you know, felt like it.
Speaker A:But I read that the bus driver took Umbridge and told him to get off because the bus driver is for middle class people, not millionaires like you.
Speaker A:Him get up.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Well, he probably wasn't wearing shoes.
Speaker A:Malcolm.
Speaker C:Malcolm Turnbull is a. Malcolm Turnbull's a mad public transport guy.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker C:Like, he would, he'd get the plane.
Speaker C:If he caught the plane at Melbourne, he'd jump on the sky bus.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:I, I. Sky bus is awesome.
Speaker C:Yeah, it is that much better an experience than driving.
Speaker C:I mean, what's weird about me is because I hardly drive anymore, I don't.
Speaker C:It's sort of become that I don't really like driving, so.
Speaker C:And that's become a bit silly, you know, I need to reboot that a bit.
Speaker A:You're a man of habits.
Speaker C:Yeah, I probably am, but also deliberately so.
Speaker C:Going back to my father, you know, didn't know where his keys were.
Speaker C:So me as a young man, I would have no clue where my keys are.
Speaker C:But I've sort of worked out that part of.
Speaker C:Actually, let's just call it not being like that.
Speaker C:I've had to sort of certain rhythm and discipline I've practiced.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:So it's not naturally that I'll know where my keys are.
Speaker C:I've got to make sure that I do the same thing every day.
Speaker C:So I know where my keys are.
Speaker A:Yeah, I get it.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And that's part of Nick understanding that there are things about how you operate which would make me a better operator.
Speaker C:So try to work on those things.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker A:Good on you.
Speaker A:Hey, you've been really generous with your time, so we'll let you go.
Speaker A:But I do want to ask you, when you get into this headspace of thinking back to younger you and the building blocks and who, who and how you've become, who you've become, what does it feel like to go back there?
Speaker C:Sad and sad and I'm all sad, actually, is my honest answer.
Speaker B:Okay.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:Because, you know, in the end, in the end, a family, family break up and it still affects, it still affects how my sisters are.
Speaker C:It affects me and I think that's sad, you know, so that's one answer.
Speaker C:The other answer is I feel very grateful because I have had an amazing, you know, time and there's no question that the.
Speaker C:My early, you know, my childhood created that, that, that person and all that ambition and fire and self belief and desire to give everything a go, desire to have an impact, all that stuff.
Speaker C:No question that that came from, you know, my early life.
Speaker C:And I can see, I see it very clearly and I feel like, I feel like I've got a long way to go.
Speaker C:James and Nick, there's a lot of stuff still to do.
Speaker A:You're on the road to find out, as Cat Steven said.
Speaker C:Nicely done.
Speaker A:Thank you.
Speaker C:Yeah, most definitely I'm on the road to find out.
Speaker C:And I saw Jeff Kennett give a speech, gosh, 15, 20 years or 15 years ago, and he said, you've got to pretend you're going to live to 150.
Speaker C:And I really enjoyed that.
Speaker C:I thought, you know what, good on you.
Speaker C:And wow.
Speaker C:I mean, what Jeff, he must be nearly 80 and he's still.
Speaker C:Whether you like him or not, it's not the point.
Speaker C:He's still got a loud voice.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And.
Speaker C:And good on him for.
Speaker C:Just keep on keeping on and having an impact and looking at the bigger picture, you know, wanting to be learned in a way.
Speaker C:I think so, yeah.
Speaker C:I don't mind saying that.
Speaker C:I'd be quite happy to.
Speaker C:I'm quite happy with the thought of keep going.
Speaker C:You know, I don't feel like it's bugging.
Speaker C:What the church will keep buggering on.
Speaker C:I'll just keep buggering on.
Speaker C:I'm not thinking like that.
Speaker C:Just thinking about, keep going for it and just trying to have an impact.
Speaker C:That's all.
Speaker C:It's very interesting when I think about it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:I think it's inspiring and I think your attitude is very youthful and I think it's going to serve you well.
Speaker B:Like it's.
Speaker B:You've got a lot of life energy.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I love the curiosity and the willingness to keep exploring and seeing what life has to offer while we have it.
Speaker A:It's precious and you live that and it's.
Speaker A:It radiates.
Speaker A:I think it's really, really lovely.
Speaker A:Thanks for sharing that with us.
Speaker B:Actually, I mentioned to my mother in law we were going to be speaking with you today and she said the most lovely thing about you and I think it's absolutely true after speaking with you, but she said Russell is someone who is always a glass half full kind of person and sees the best in people.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker B:And that's coming across.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:It's interesting.
Speaker C:It is interesting.
Speaker C:I do see the best in people sometimes to my detriment and.
Speaker C:But I can't change that and I don't want to change it actually.
Speaker C:And much more.
Speaker C:I'm actually more interested in helping people with their success than I am in my own.
Speaker C:And again, that's cost me a lot over the years.
Speaker C:Like I can millions and I think sometimes sharper people see that in me.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:And maybe use it anyway.
Speaker C:All gone.
Speaker A:No, it's wonderful.
Speaker A:Thank you very much.
Speaker A:So in a moment we'll hear you read a letter to your child self, which I'm looking forward to.
Speaker A:But there is one request I've got for you before we get to it.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:You famously helped the Melbourne Football Club get out of the Doldrums.
Speaker C:You.
Speaker A:You rescued that club.
Speaker A:You brought them back to me and others.
Speaker A:Would you do the same for Essendon in our hour of need?
Speaker A:We need rebranding immediately.
Speaker C:Yeah, you do.
Speaker C:Well, you know.
Speaker C:No.
Speaker C:Well, I had to.
Speaker C:I voluntarily was part of the Melbourne turnaround.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:You'd have to pay me to build this, which I do as a. I do it for a contract.
Speaker C:No problem at all.
Speaker C:And it's footy clubs are really tough.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:You know, it would appear to be easy, but they're not.
Speaker C:And why?
Speaker C:Because what does Andrew Denton say?
Speaker C:You see the best and the worst of humans.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker C:And that's most definitely true.
Speaker C:They are a joy, though.
Speaker C:Gosh.
Speaker C:One of the great things that happened to me was getting involved with the Melbourne Footy club.
Speaker C:Obviously I had a great passion for it as a supporter, but then to get invited to be involved.
Speaker C:And I still am.
Speaker C:And I still am a bit involved as well.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker C:That's great.
Speaker C:I just adore it.
Speaker C:And I'd do anything to help them.
Speaker A:Good on you, Russ.
Speaker A:Thank you so much.
Speaker C:Thank you.
Speaker B:Been a pleasure.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker A:All right, Nick, What a fantastic chat with Russell.
Speaker B:Loved it.
Speaker A:He surprised me.
Speaker A:You know, I expected the wittiness.
Speaker A:I knew he'd be intelligent, but he also brought a lot of emotion to the table.
Speaker A:And in his reflections there at the end.
Speaker A:Yeah, he just impressed me with how connected he was to his emotion, in his nostalgia and in his memory.
Speaker B:Totally agree.
Speaker B:Yeah, that was a pleasant surprise.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So many interesting themes in that episode.
Speaker B:There is one I wanted to briefly start with, if that's okay.
Speaker B:And it was actually.
Speaker B:It was something you said during the episode that really caught my attention.
Speaker A:Thanks.
Speaker B:You said something to the effect of, we want our kids to feel safe and loved, no doubt.
Speaker B:But a little bit of discomfort creates resilience and strength.
Speaker B:So obviously this had me just ruminating on the good that can come from difficulty in childhood.
Speaker B:And, you know, Russell was careful, and he did say, of course he wouldn't wish a divorce on anyone.
Speaker B:Also, while acknowledging all of the strength that it provided for him.
Speaker B:His resilience, his determination, his will for his own happy family.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And on this theme, I came across something else that I just wanted to share and read and get your thoughts on.
Speaker B:Cause I think it's something that we should all be trying to keep front and center as we think back to our childhood and explore the complexities of inheritance.
Speaker B:So this is something that I found on Modern Wisdom.
Speaker B:So this is Chris Williamson on a terrific podcast, and we can provide a link in the show notes below.
Speaker B:But he's talking about something that he calls the parental attribution error.
Speaker B:We often blame our parents.
Speaker B:It's almost a rite of passage in psychology.
Speaker B:But there's a double standard buried in the trend.
Speaker B:We can attribute what's broken in us to our upbringings while claiming that what's strong is ours alone.
Speaker B:It's a skewed way of assigning credit and blame.
Speaker B:We externalize the bad and we internalize the good.
Speaker B:Quick to blame and slow to credit.
Speaker B:You say you're anxiously attached because no one held you when you needed it.
Speaker B:But isn't your ability to be alone with your emotions, to endure discomfort quietly, also forged in the same crucible?
Speaker B:You blame your parents for pushing you too hard in school, convinced that it made you perfectionistic and neurotic.
Speaker B:But when was the last time that you acknowledged that that same pressure gave you ambition, discipline, and drive?
Speaker B:You trace your conflict avoidance back to all of the shouting at home.
Speaker B:But isn't that also where your talent for de escalation and your emotional radar came from.
Speaker B:You chalk up your hyper independence to not being able to trust anyone.
Speaker B:But isn't that also what made you capable, adaptable, and calm under pressure?
Speaker B:You say that your nervous system never relaxes because your home was unpredictable.
Speaker B:But isn't that also why you're perceptive, quick thinking, and never caught off guard?
Speaker B:The traits you were most ashamed of are often just the dark side of something light.
Speaker B:The truth is messier than a single cause because every trait we have is entangled.
Speaker B:Wounds and gifts often share a root.
Speaker B:But this perspective requires maturity.
Speaker B:It is simpler to cast yourself as the victim of bad parenting than to reckon with a complicated inheritance.
Speaker B:It's easier to say they hurt me than to admit they shaped me in ways that I'm still figuring out.
Speaker B:The cultural narrative rewards blaming your parents more than it does understanding them.
Speaker B:None of this obviously excuses abuse, neglect or dysfunction, but it does ask for honesty.
Speaker B:If you are going to draw a straight line from your childhood to your flaws, you should trace that same lineage to your strengths.
Speaker B:If you can't let your parents take credit for what's right with you, maybe you shouldn't be so quick to make them the villains for what's wrong.
Speaker A:Yeah, thanks for sharing that.
Speaker A:There's a lot of really interesting stuff in there.
Speaker A:A couple of thoughts immediately.
Speaker A:One would be it's a really common defense mechanism that we all are capable of to externalize when something's uncomfortable within us.
Speaker A:The instinct is to externalize blame or attribution of where that's come from as a way of protecting the ego, protecting the self, you know, so that's.
Speaker A:That can be quite instinctive, whether for parents or just in life in general with external influences that might be causal.
Speaker A:But yeah, usually it's.
Speaker A:It's good to look inwards as well and think about, hang on, you know, where do I sit within this?
Speaker A:Even if it's uncomfortable?
Speaker A:Is one thought.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:The second would be around the story that we tell.
Speaker A:And you know, that that's a really nice example that you've just painted.
Speaker A:There are two very different ways of telling the same story.
Speaker A:And you know, whether good or bad, in our upbringing, the story that we emerge from childhood with is going to shape so much of our life experience and our mental health and conception of ourselves.
Speaker A:And in those examples there, you know, the sense of do we take resilience from a challenging situation or do we focus on the more negative side of it?
Speaker A:So, yeah, some really interesting takeaways there yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:Oh, I just loved it.
Speaker B:Partly because obviously every single episode, we're encouraging everyone, along with our guests, to explore their childhood and to think back.
Speaker B:And parents are such a huge, unavoidable part of our upbringing, and we're gonna be discussing parents in every single episode.
Speaker B:So just having that nuanced approach, to be careful with blame and to also attribute to difficulty a lot of our strengths, I think is a really just important thing to keep in mind as we go.
Speaker A:But wasn't Russell a good example of really not doing that in terms of blame, challenging situations?
Speaker A:And yeah, he acknowledged that it was really painful, that divorce, and that he did hold a lot of anger for a long time.
Speaker A:But he was very careful, wasn't he, to try and paint his parents as very human and very complex and to note how much good came out of that relationships.
Speaker B:No, that's what inspired the thinking is that Russell kind of demonstrated that, you know, even going to the extent of like, saying he understood his mum's perspective on.
Speaker A:Even though he did hold a lot of anger for a long time.
Speaker B:For a long time.
Speaker B:But he did come to the point.
Speaker B:So, yeah, so he did.
Speaker B:Did demonstrate that, I think.
Speaker A:Yeah, no, thanks for sharing that.
Speaker A:That was interesting.
Speaker A:A couple of thoughts that I had from the episode.
Speaker A:One was that really evocative moment in the chat where Russell talked about his very nostalgic memory of that time with Grandpa, and he painted that picture in quite an evocative way.
Speaker A:And, yeah, that really struck me as like an emotional anchor point for him.
Speaker A:Did he mention that he goes back there, like, almost all the time?
Speaker B:He said he thinks about it almost every evening.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:I don't know if that was just a hyperbole for podcast sake, but, yeah, all the time he said, yeah, a.
Speaker A:Very strong visual and, you know, you could hear it, you could smell it, you could see it.
Speaker A:And that's something that our audience can think about as they're listening along.
Speaker A:What are your anchor points, your nostalgic anchor points in your life?
Speaker A:Because so much of life, of course, can feel so chaotic and uncertain, but having those moments, if we're lucky enough to have had an upbringing that is worthy of them, to think back to those real touchstone moments that we can think of evocatively that help us feel anchored.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:It almost felt like a journal entry for him, didn't it?
Speaker B:And it's undeniable, his self confidence.
Speaker B:Like, this is a man that knows exactly who he is and has this.
Speaker A:Ritual, which points to the other thing I wanted to think about.
Speaker A:Which was his drive and such a central theme to this man, you know, very, very successful and, and known as such and just the nature of how he goes about it.
Speaker A:What were some of your observations in terms of how driven he is and how he goes about his ambition?
Speaker B:Well, it's complicated because there's a lot of things I think you could attribute to that.
Speaker B:As you heard that story.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:It seems like his temperance right from the start was pretty willful and confident and a go getter attitude.
Speaker B:Then of course, as we mentioned the divorce he was talking about, a lot of his independence and drive also came from that difficulty.
Speaker B:Further to that, I guess his success seems partly in this absolute willingness to give everything a go.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Well, he had that advice from grandpa, if you're gonna be, you know, anything, be the best at it.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And that seems to have really, you know, that's a foundation stone of how he goes about it.
Speaker A:But something that surprised me a little was when he said that's not really about personal ambition so much as he just wants to contribute something good in the world.
Speaker A:Which I thought was a really interesting take.
Speaker A:He's not necessarily chasing ego.
Speaker A:In fact he's been quite self sacrificial many times in his career, but he's just driven like few other people I've met to continue to reach those heights.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Which also includes a lot of sacrifice.
Speaker B:Right?
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:So the no tv, the no wasting time, always productive, always onto the next.
Speaker A:Thing and no car.
Speaker A:And he seems to have a very clear sense all the time of how precious time is and to use it really effectively and what a great habit to have formed for him over his journey.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:I think we need to get more 60 pluses on because.
Speaker B:Yeah, he brought that life wisdom.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker A:And we do want to do that, don't we?
Speaker A:We want to make sure that we are featuring people from across the lifespan.
Speaker B:But no, I just appreciated his lessons and his wisdom that he shared.
Speaker B:So yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Russell, thank you for your time.
Speaker B:Thank you, Russell.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Nick.
Speaker A:And thank you for yours.
Speaker A:Another episode.
Speaker A:This is an enjoyable process.
Speaker A:I like doing this with you.
Speaker B:Good.
Speaker B:Yeah, I like it too.
Speaker A:And lastly, thank you to you for listening along.
Speaker A:If you've come on this journey with us so far, we will be back with another episode next week.
Speaker A:See you then.
Speaker B:Bye.
Speaker C:Okay, you ready?
Speaker C:Dear self, dear 13 year old self, don't hold back on the ideas that you have for yourself.
Speaker C:Be big, bold and impactful.
Speaker C:Concentrate on the smaller things.
Speaker C:Savings are a good idea.
Speaker C:Trust your investment instincts.
Speaker C:And be sure to learn the power of compound interest when adventures present themselves.
Speaker C:Make sure you say yes.
Speaker C:Don't worry, everything will be okay.
Speaker C:Be a good friend, stay in touch with your mates, build businesses and take great care to choose the right partners.
Speaker C:And when you do, pour all your energy into creating social impact practice board games and hone your design skills.
Speaker C:Design will be the fuel for your creative life.
Speaker C:You'll be fortunate with the family you build.
Speaker C:A gorgeous, smart, beautiful woman will partner you and together you will enjoy a life of fun and happiness with your three children.
Speaker C:And finally, you'll enjoy being a grandfather, washing cars, gardening, reading books and drinking whisky poured by one of your beautiful grandchildren.
Speaker B:You're a Good Kid is produced by Nick and James Van Cuylenburg, recorded at Whitehouse Sound in Melbourne, Australia with artwork by Dark Dirty Puppet.
Speaker A:We acknowledge the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation as the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast was recorded and recognise their continuing connection to lands, waters and community.
Speaker B:We pay our respects to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures and to the elders past, present and emerging.
Speaker A:If anything in this podcast has raised concerns related to mental health, please contact your health professional or effurgency.
Speaker A:Call Lifeline on 13, 11, 14.
