Episode 4
Ali Daddo - The Invisible Icon
Today's guest has graced the absolute pinnacle of the Australian modeling and media landscape; author, podcaster, and former model Ali Brahe-Daddo. As the definitive cover girl for Dolly, Cleo, and Cosmopolitan, Ali built a public persona in the late 80s and 90s that looked to the world like the ultimate health, happiness, and triumph.
But what happens when you strip away the flawless public image? In this deeply moving interview, Ali connects with her youth in a profoundly raw and emotional way. She opens up about a pivotal reality that had a major impact on her development: the intense isolation she experienced as a young girl, spending much of her childhood feeling unseen despite her massive public visibility.
Ali shares how these early dynamics reshaped her internal messaging, her desire to downplay herself and please others back to her childhood search for safety and structure. We also dive into how Ali has come full circle for her audience. The very same generation of women who looked up to her as a teen icon on their favorite magazine covers now look to her for guidance in midlife. Through her hit book Queen Menopause: Finding Your Majesty in the Mayhem, Ali has broken down walls and destigmatized the aging process, helping many women step out of the shadows of the "invisible years" and reclaim their power.
In their post-interview debrief, James and Nick unpack the fascinating psychology behind Ali's childhood blueprint:
• The Blueprint of People-Pleasing: How early childhood isolation and unmet needs can subconsciously create rigid "schemas"—internalized rules that convince us we must morph to please others just to secure safety, structure, and avoid abandonment.
• The Cover-Girl Paradox: Exploring the disconnect between external validation and internal belief, and why being an "invisible icon" on the front of Dolly or Cleo proves that global adoration can never replace the foundational, focused attention a child needs from those closest to them.
• From Teen Icon to Midlife Guide: How confronting the vulnerabilities of her past allowed Ali to become the ultimate companion for women navigating menopause—shifting the narrative from societal invisibility to internal majesty.
This is a rare, captivating look at a familiar face, proving that no matter how flawless the image we build as adults, we are all still carrying the boys and girls we used to be.
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Credits: Produced and Hosted by Dr James van Cuylenburg & Nick van Cuylenburg.
Audio production by White Owl Sound.
Season 2 is brought to you by Engage 1on1 Psychology
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Transcript
If you were a teenager in the 80s, you didn't just know the face, you probably had it tacked to your bedroom wall.
Speaker A:Allie Daddo was the quintessential Aussie girl.
Speaker A:A regular on the covers of Dolly, Cleo and Cosmo.
Speaker A:She was the idealised image an entire generation looked up to.
Speaker A:But the experience for Ally was very different.
Speaker A:A shy, uncertain kid who grew up feeling invisible, she found Australia's adulation triggered almost unbearable anxiety.
Speaker A:Today, we're so grateful to Ali for sharing her childhood story, as well as her mission to discover an authentic self that goes far beyond the COVID page.
Speaker A:Nick, wasn't it great to have such a heartfelt chat with Ali?
Speaker B:Yep.
Speaker B:I was really moved by this one.
Speaker B:We've got a warm, insightful, just wonderful guest now.
Speaker B:We knew we were going to get a wonderful guest because we'd spoken with Ali once before.
Speaker B:We were interviewed on her podcast that she runs with her husband, the Heart Of It.
Speaker B:And in that chat we got an insight into Ali's life story just a little bit, because she shared a childhood letter of her own on that podcast.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:We didn't quite know what we were in for, but as it turns out, it was this profound letter and I think we both came away from that.
Speaker A:Really moved.
Speaker A:And, yeah, looking forward to the opportunity to invite Ali to speak with us today.
Speaker A:And yes, of course, that conversation was with Cameron, her very famous husband.
Speaker A:They've done a lot of work together and people may know them as an Australian power couple.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So a public facing couple.
Speaker B:But what people might not know is that there was actually a big gap for Ali in the middle.
Speaker B:So she was very well known as a teenager, as a model.
Speaker B:They moved to LA and then for about 25 years they lived there.
Speaker B:Ali wasn't in the spotlight in that time.
Speaker B:She became an educator, she was trained at ucla, she trained in the Rudolf Steiner stream.
Speaker B:She also helped people as a doula, training people to prepare for birth.
Speaker B:Worked with a lot of charities and just did some amazing work over there, as well as becoming a mother, her lifelong ambition.
Speaker B:So she's got a beautifully big family.
Speaker A:She does.
Speaker A:And also now doing some incredible work in the menopause space and is this great inspiration, I think, to many people and has written a book on the topic.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Queen Menopause, Finding Majesty and the Mayhem.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And it's just really striking how authentic she is and her willingness to kind of get into the messy details of what it is to be going through menopause and going through challenges in your marriage.
Speaker A:It's really, it takes a lot to be vulnerable and honest like that in the public sphere.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So she addresses those things.
Speaker B:But it's so empowering, uplifting.
Speaker B:She's got a very hopeful and positive spin on things.
Speaker A:She does, and she brought that to us today.
Speaker A:So we're really looking forward to sharing this episode.
Speaker A:But we should mention this is a slightly unique one for us, Nick.
Speaker A:We've branched out into a different kind of episode.
Speaker B:Yes, indeed.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:This is our first remote recording.
Speaker B:It is.
Speaker B:So you might hear some audio differences.
Speaker B:But look, she was just a guest that we were so thrilled to work with.
Speaker B:She couldn't make it to Melbourne.
Speaker B:So, yeah, we're expanding online interviews.
Speaker A:It was a great opportunity and let's get into it now.
Speaker A:You're a Good Kid is recorded on the lands of the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation and is supported by Engage One on One Psychology Helping People Engage with Life.
Speaker B:This podcast discusses mental health related themes that may be triggering for some listeners.
Speaker B: r if urgent, call Lifeline on: Speaker A:My name is James Van Cuylenburg.
Speaker A:I'm a clinical psychologist and together with my brother Nick, we're going to hear stories from a diverse range of people about how their childhoods have shaped them.
Speaker B:Our guests are invited to share a photo of themselves as kids, which you can see by following the link in the show notes.
Speaker B:And at the end of each episode you'll hear them read a letter to their child selves.
Speaker A:If you could say anything to your child self, what would you say?
Speaker B:Welcome to youo're a Good Kid.
Speaker B: Alison Braydatto was born in: Speaker B:Her family home sat right at the entrance to the Kooringai Wildflower Garden.
Speaker B:And Ellie has vivid early memories of wandering through this national park completely alone, without her parents ever knowing where she was.
Speaker B:At home, she lived with her mum and dad and two older sisters who were five and seven years older than her.
Speaker C:So my oldest sister is the typical older sister in the sense that she is the organizer, she's the list maker and she's fab, absolutely fabulous.
Speaker C:And then my middle sister, we were really good mates growing up and she's the funny one.
Speaker C:She's got a great sense of humor and I don't know who's quirkier, me or her.
Speaker C:Probably me.
Speaker C:I think I always felt like the black sheep of the Family because I'm like the painter, the knitter, the drawer, sort of that whole side of things and no one else is like that in my family.
Speaker B:Ali's dad was a magistrate who worked very long hours.
Speaker B:And as was typical for the time, Ali's mother was predominantly a stay at home mum.
Speaker B:Her parents divorced when she was just five years old, but decided to stay living in the same house until Ellie was 16.
Speaker B:This, she recalls, created a very unhappy household for everyone involved, which became even more complicated when her mum re partnered while they were all still living together.
Speaker C:Incredibly complicated.
Speaker C:Yeah, it was very complicated.
Speaker C:Not for my mum, but yeah, for dad it was, that was a major, major heartbreak that was very challenging for him.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:You know, as we get older, in hindsight and understand exactly what was really happening in the home and understanding repercussions of living in a home that had its challenges, I would say there was a lot of silence.
Speaker C:A lot of silence.
Speaker C:Being the youngest, I did not know what was going other than mum and dad did not like each other anymore and they were in separate bedrooms outside the home.
Speaker B:Ellie's main loves were ballet and netball and she also loved art at school.
Speaker B:Then at 16, her life changed forever when the opportunity arose.
Speaker B:She dropped out of school halfway through year 11 to pursue modeling.
Speaker B:And very quickly she was featured on the covers of the biggest magazines and was being flown around the world.
Speaker B:While this sudden rise to fame brought new opportunities, it didn't heal the unhappy dynamic in her home or her childhood wounds.
Speaker B:And it also presented Ali with many friendship challenges too.
Speaker C:It was challenging, I think, for the girls around me a little bit, to be my friend.
Speaker C:I think that was a little hard.
Speaker C:Felt like there was a real significant drop off in, in the, in my friendships with the, with my girlfriends at that time.
Speaker C:And that whole concept stayed with me for a long time.
Speaker C:That, yeah, it was better to like, I sort of learned, you know, downplay, downplay yourself as much as possible throughout your life in order to maintain friendships because you don't want to, you don't want to get too big or too whatever because people don't like you for that.
Speaker C:So that, that one stayed with me well and truly.
Speaker A:Eli Datto, welcome.
Speaker C:Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker A:It's absolutely fantastic to have you here.
Speaker A:It's a reunion of sorts.
Speaker A:You were very kind to have us on your podcast with Cam at the heart of it not too long ago.
Speaker A:That was a fantastic experience.
Speaker C:Oh, we loved having the both of you on.
Speaker C:We talked about both of you for a long time afterwards.
Speaker C:As having you, after having you as guests.
Speaker B:Oh, that's kind.
Speaker A:Yeah, we loved it.
Speaker A:It was really meaningful.
Speaker A:And I don't want to say you surprised us because we knew you'd be good, but when we asked you to consider doing the letter, just.
Speaker A:Yeah, it blew us away, actually.
Speaker A:For those listening who don't realize this, Ellie had a go at reading a letter to her younger self on the episode.
Speaker A:And it was poignant and profound.
Speaker A:We didn't really have time to get into it, but it was lovely.
Speaker A:How did you find that experience?
Speaker C:Yeah, it was one of those ones where it was kind of those experience where I go, oh my God, what am I going to write?
Speaker C:I'm struggling, I'm struggling.
Speaker C:And then once it clicked, I knew exactly what I wanted to write and it just was a very easy flow from there.
Speaker C:And yeah, it's a letter that I've definitely kept and will keep.
Speaker C:And it was twofold in a sense that it was very meaningful to me from the little girl that I was, but also incredibly meaningful to me as a mum, knowing that I had flipped that script and done exactly what, what I needed, I was giving and gave to my kids.
Speaker C:So it was kind of this bittersweet moment too.
Speaker B:Well, it left a big impression on both of us and just made us feel that you'd be the perfect guest because, yeah, you're so warm and so open and that letter was.
Speaker B:Had an impact.
Speaker B:I've since then and in doing research for today, been reading Queen Menopause and of course there I learned that you've written many letters to your younger self.
Speaker B:I. I had a letter to your 20 year old self, I believe to your kids, your husband, your uterus.
Speaker B:And I think my favorite was your letter to your cellulite, maybe your short one.
Speaker B:I don't know if you want to reread that for us now, but that was.
Speaker B:That hit me.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:I think the F bomb was part of that.
Speaker C:It was.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:So you're very well versed in writing letters and yeah, yeah, we're thrilled to have you here.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's great.
Speaker A:My sister is also very excited that we're talking to you.
Speaker A:So she's a little older than me.
Speaker A:She's seven years older.
Speaker B:Our sister.
Speaker A:Our sister, yeah.
Speaker A:Not just yours.
Speaker A:Not just mine.
Speaker A:You claim her as well.
Speaker B:I do claim her as well.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:That's fair enough.
Speaker C:That's nice.
Speaker C:That's nice.
Speaker A:Beautiful human.
Speaker A:But she was peak teenage years when Dolly was at its highest.
Speaker A:And so when we spoke about you coming in, she Said, oh my God, I idolize her.
Speaker A:So she's gonna be really excited to hear this episode and to connect with her younger self through that as well, I think.
Speaker C:Well, it's such a beautiful experience when I connect with women of my ilk because we all have this shared experience of Dolly magazine and all of us think back to that time in such a beautiful way.
Speaker C:And to be part of that memory for women, I don't take that for granted because I had the same experience with Dolly magazine.
Speaker C:It was these incredible pictures of girls my age in cool clothing that I could try to emulate and plus all this information.
Speaker C:And so it was simpler days, that's for sure.
Speaker C:I think that was often what we lament a little bit now.
Speaker A:And that became a significant part of your life when you were about 15, is that right?
Speaker C:16.
Speaker C:I started modeling.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And the trajectory from there, was it quite fast for you in terms of how it all took off?
Speaker C:Look, I think in some ways, yes.
Speaker C:The first thing I kind of almost did was just go to Japan.
Speaker C:That was what first got me.
Speaker C:Modeling was like I did a couple of catalogs and they said, do you want to travel to Japan?
Speaker C:And so I said yes to that, which was a huge experience as a 16 year old.
Speaker C:Far too young to be in a foreign country on my own.
Speaker C:But then it was sort of.
Speaker C:Things were building after that.
Speaker C:When I came home, I spent some time in the UK that was also building.
Speaker C:And then, yeah, around, I think 18, 19 was fairly peak time, I think, around there.
Speaker A:So was that the point when you sort of realized life's not going to be the same?
Speaker A:You know, I'm not going to go back to that simple life again?
Speaker A:Or was.
Speaker A:How did you think about it?
Speaker C:Yeah, I think I had such a different view, I think, of modeling that a lot of people assume that I. I had, like, not a lot changed for me.
Speaker C:I was still, you know, I still lived in my home a lot of the time.
Speaker C:I didn't have model, photographer, makeup artist friends, but I guess the first famous person I kind of met was my husband.
Speaker C:He was literally the first famous person.
Speaker C:And then sort of, then I understand it became something else altogether at 20.
Speaker C:But yeah, I just honestly, it felt like I was still very naive and kind of stumbling from one thing into the next a lot of the time.
Speaker B:Well, of course, yeah, a lot of Australia was very aware of you around that time.
Speaker B:But on theme for what we do here, we'd love to go back earlier and hear a little bit about the younger years and what it was like in your home.
Speaker B:We understand that you brought a couple of photos with you.
Speaker B:Perhaps you might be able to share one or two of those and take us back to some younger moments.
Speaker C:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker C:Okay, let me pull this up on my phone.
Speaker C:So this is one of my.
Speaker C:I love this photograph of me.
Speaker C:So I'm at a wedding and I reckon I'm about four or five there.
Speaker C:So, you know, my memory is not amazing of my younger years, but I think to me, there's just a lot.
Speaker C:There's a lot in my eyes there.
Speaker C:To me, there's a lot.
Speaker C:There's a lot going on.
Speaker A:Can you describe the photo for our listeners who haven't seen it?
Speaker C:Yeah, good point, good point.
Speaker C:Of course, it's a black and white.
Speaker C:I'm in a little.
Speaker C:This little flower dress because I'm at my aunt and uncle's wedding and I'm not smiling hugely.
Speaker C:I've got a little smile on my face.
Speaker C:I've got my enormous head of hair, which I had from a young age.
Speaker C:But, yeah, I mean, whether or not I'm projecting what I know about myself at that age or it really is there, but my eyes have just kind of got this depth of sort of looking out at the world, like, am I okay?
Speaker C:Kind of look to me.
Speaker C:So I just love that little kid in that picture.
Speaker A:That's beautiful.
Speaker C:She's very, very dear to me.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:So tell us a bit about what was going on for you in your home around that time.
Speaker A:What was life like?
Speaker C:Yeah, look, I think it was.
Speaker C:I think like anyone whose family went through a divorce, it's.
Speaker C:And speaking so little.
Speaker C:And it was a very challenging divorce for my mum and dad.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker C:So What?
Speaker C: That was: Speaker C:Like, who knew to sit down and talk to your kids about what was really happening?
Speaker C:I think they just got on with life and went about the best that they could.
Speaker C:But I knew that my dad was hurting, my mum was not in the house a lot.
Speaker C:My two older sisters were a lot more social.
Speaker C:So there was a lot of alone time for me as a little kid.
Speaker C:And I know that my invisibility issues begun from a very early age where I. I tend to feel invisible, you know, whether it's in social situations or in relationships where that's something that comes up where I don't feel like I'm heard or seen or.
Speaker C:And I think that's what I see in that, in that little bit.
Speaker A:So in relation to Mum and Dad, how did that invisibility feeling present itself?
Speaker A:Was it just that Feeling of a lack of the kind of attention you might have wanted or like what do you think gave you that feeling with them?
Speaker C:Yeah, I think, you know, dad was in a lot of pain so he was dealing with that and didn't have I guess the bandwidth to be looking after a four or five year old and mum was, I think she, she felt, I don't really know, like, I guess she felt she'd escaped a relationship she didn't want to be in so she was on her own trajectory.
Speaker C:I know that, you know, I mean they, they, they make a joke of it but I was, I was the accident baby.
Speaker C:So they had only really wanted the two older kids and so, and I, there is a fairly, you know, it's a big age gap a little, you know, in the scheme of things.
Speaker C:So I think that's what sort of happened.
Speaker C:I sort of slipped through the cracks a fair bit and yeah, unless I was with my grandparents and then I was the apple of their eye.
Speaker B:So if you were to think back to the times that you were alone, how did you spend that time?
Speaker B:How were you self soothing?
Speaker B:What were you drawn to in isolation?
Speaker C:That's a good question.
Speaker C:I used to draw all the time and that I just would draw and it was a therapy for me I think as well.
Speaker C:But that was.
Speaker C:I have so many memories of sitting at the dining room table just drawing, drawing for hours and hours and hours and I loved it, I loved it.
Speaker C:But that was, yeah, that was a lot of what I was doing.
Speaker A:So a couple of concepts there.
Speaker A:One, that idea that you were the accident baby, how early do you remember feeling like that was true or being told that how old would you have been?
Speaker C:Yeah, I can't remember the first time it was said to me.
Speaker C:I feel like I've.
Speaker C:It's one of those things where I feel like I've known for a really long time.
Speaker C:I mean my mum says it's the best accident, you know, that she ever had.
Speaker C:But I do remember, you know, when it was.
Speaker C:Oh yep, you were the accident.
Speaker C:You were the accident.
Speaker C:You know, it's sort of like, it's a funny feeling to feel like oh, so I wasn't exactly wanted or planned for and so there's an element to that that kind of hits you in a insecure sort of, you know, again that whole place, am I wanted, am I loved, am I the invisibility, you know, all of that kind of place.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:From a building blocks of your self worth and identity, it's just another layer of challenge to add to that.
Speaker A:But in terms of Mum and Dad and their separation and what you probably did and didn't understand at the time, the decision to stay together, as in stay in the same home.
Speaker A:I work with a lot of parents who are separating who have that instinct that maybe this would be better.
Speaker A:Can you tell us a bit about what you've learned now to understand why they did that?
Speaker A:What was their thinking around that?
Speaker C:That was really my dad.
Speaker C:My dad never wanted his kids to have to choose which parent they were going to live with.
Speaker C:And he didn't want a week on, week off.
Speaker C:He didn't want that experience.
Speaker C:He wanted us to stay, unfortunately, much to his distress, to stay under the one roof.
Speaker C:Do I think it was a good idea?
Speaker C:No.
Speaker C:We would have been better off going house to house with happy parents.
Speaker C:So I don't.
Speaker C:Unless you can make that work in a way where, if the two parents are divorced and they're really good mates and can stay in the same house, I wouldn't ever recommend that to the other.
Speaker B:So do you recall a bit of conflict then?
Speaker C:The conflict was not talking to each other.
Speaker C:There was years that I feel like I don't remember my mum or dad saying a word to each other.
Speaker B:Well, yeah.
Speaker A:So that must.
Speaker A:Must have created quite a lonely feeling, I'd imagine, in the house.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:And we all.
Speaker C:We all sort of.
Speaker C:It's funny how kids, as you would know, kids are so smart and you.
Speaker C:You work out pretty quick what you can and can't ask for and you.
Speaker C:And what you need to do.
Speaker C:So the three girls, because three of us, we all just.
Speaker C:We all just also went our separate ways at the same time.
Speaker C:We didn't collude together.
Speaker C:Everyone just was sort of on their own, lifeboat in the house and did whatever they needed to do to get through.
Speaker A:So in that stillness and silence and when you're doing your drawing and you know, you are, I guess, figuring it out on your own, what's the story that you were telling yourself about what it meant to be in a home that was relatively silent and where you felt a bit invisible?
Speaker C:Gosh.
Speaker C:I don't remember ever thinking, I feel invisible at that age.
Speaker C:I don't remember think.
Speaker C:Having that thought.
Speaker C:I think I just re.
Speaker C:I know I really missed my mum.
Speaker C:I think that was a big overlay for me of a feeling of wanting to spend time with her and not feeling like I ever had enough time with her.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Was the time you had with her affectionate?
Speaker B:Was there warmth when you had that.
Speaker C:Time with her affectionate?
Speaker C:No.
Speaker C:There was no, there wasn't affection for years.
Speaker C:I mean, for many, many, many years, the word I love you was never spoken in the house.
Speaker C:There was no Terms of Endearment or that kind of language.
Speaker C:There is now, which is really lovely, but, yeah, there wasn't.
Speaker C:There wasn't any affection or.
Speaker C:My mom's not a mean person or a cold person even, but perhaps I could describe her as somewhat emotionally distant person.
Speaker C:I think is probably the way I'd describe her.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And what about from dad?
Speaker A:Was he affectionate?
Speaker C:Dad?
Speaker C:No, no dad.
Speaker C:Yeah, that was a lot of struggle for dad to manage his feelings amongst the divorce and it really rocks and tore him apart.
Speaker C:So he was just attempting to manage his feelings throughout that.
Speaker A:Yeah, that sounds really difficult.
Speaker A:So what about things like family holidays or, you know, going away together, anything like that?
Speaker A:Or quality time, even just shared meals.
Speaker A:How did that work?
Speaker C:I remember one holiday when I was four, when the five of us went away, that was the only holiday that was the last family holiday.
Speaker C:After that it was dad took the three girls skiing and dad took us to Hawaii in our teens.
Speaker C:There were no family dinners at the table.
Speaker C:That was Mum, Mum in front of the TV or.
Speaker C:And sometimes dad would join, or sometimes not, even though they weren't speaking to each other.
Speaker C:But yeah, we didn't have family meals at the table.
Speaker A:And you said it was complicated when Mum repartnered and of course it was, you know, and this is one of the things that obviously couples need to reconcile with when they have this idea that maybe we'll stay in the same house.
Speaker A:It's like it becomes almost impossible at that point.
Speaker A:What was that like for all of you?
Speaker C:He was a lovely fellow too, you know, he was.
Speaker C:He was very different to my dad and he wanted to be my friend, I could tell.
Speaker C:But I remember as a kid feeling, do I talk to this man?
Speaker C:You know, I've got my dad and he's upset.
Speaker C:And so I remember being super confused about what I should and shouldn't do with him as a person.
Speaker C:Am I allowed to smile, talk, have fun with him, Go, go, go out with my mum and him.
Speaker C:Like, there was a lot of confusing feelings around that.
Speaker A:A lot that probably could have been helped just with some open, honest conversations with Mum, if she'd been capable of it.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:It's fascinating because you come across as someone who's so emotionally intelligent and warm and connected.
Speaker A:Were you that person when you were younger?
Speaker C:Look, you know, there's things that I remember really well about even as a little kid, knowing, I will never raise my kids like this, you know, And I.
Speaker C:And it's reflected in the letter that I remember even saying, I will.
Speaker C:I can't wait to be a mum because I want to show up for every single ballet recital and netball game.
Speaker C:And like I remember even back then I kind of knew that what I sort of needed in a way and what I want, wanted to give at the same time.
Speaker C:But it's taken me.
Speaker C:I, you know, there's a lot that came from that in the sense of I leaned heavily into being a nice girl and wanting to like, do the right thing by people and if I could make you happy, then you would like me and I would feel safe.
Speaker C:So that's kind of what happened from the childhood experience is my life became about, are you okay?
Speaker C:Is this okay?
Speaker C:Am I okay with you?
Speaker C:Do you need me to change?
Speaker C:Do you need me to do something different so you like me?
Speaker C:So there was a lot of that experience that I had to work through.
Speaker B:So understandable.
Speaker B:And I'm curious how those, those kind of people pleasing tendencies played out socially for you as well.
Speaker B:Can be very difficult for children if they haven't had great examples of relating.
Speaker C:Yeah, I think I, I still struggle with this today is trusting that someone actually likes me.
Speaker C:For me, like that comes up a lot where I'm like, I don't know.
Speaker C:I don't know if there's something I've done wrong.
Speaker C:Like that question I would always ask, did I do something wrong?
Speaker C:Was it me?
Speaker C:And I'm always scanning the area to like, to like, what's the mood in the room?
Speaker C:What's the mood with this person?
Speaker C:So, yeah, socially it was, it was difficult.
Speaker C:And I always looked for sort of one person that I could hold really close.
Speaker C:And those breakups in those kind of friendships were just devastating for me.
Speaker C:Devastating.
Speaker C:So had a lot of like feeling lonely, a lot of loneliness as well.
Speaker C:I can remember spending years feeling, feeling lonely, you know, so.
Speaker C:And yeah, just not trusting that I was, that I was liked for just being me.
Speaker C:I had to always felt like I had to do something to be liked.
Speaker A:What about your sisters?
Speaker A:Were they a source of comfort?
Speaker C:You know, it's funny, my sisters are gorgeous people.
Speaker C:And I will say this, and no one can believe it, we have not.
Speaker C:I'm 56.
Speaker C:My eldest sister is.
Speaker C:Yeah, what is she?
Speaker C:She's 60, 62 now, 63.
Speaker C:We have not.
Speaker C:We've never talked about our childhood.
Speaker A:Wow.
Speaker B:Really?
Speaker C:Nope.
Speaker A:And why not?
Speaker C:Never?
Speaker C:I think we're still in the holding pattern of the lifeboats, we just.
Speaker C:It wasn't encouraged.
Speaker C:And I feel like we all suffered in our own ways.
Speaker C:I know that for sure.
Speaker C:And I just don't know if anyone wants to, like, open that book and dive in there.
Speaker C:I would.
Speaker C:I know I would, but I don't know if my sisters want to.
Speaker C:Like when I've sort of.
Speaker C:Sort of tried to sort of step in a little bit and kind of, hey, you know, there's gonna, like.
Speaker C:No.
Speaker C:So I don't.
Speaker C:I think they're.
Speaker C:I think they just don't want to.
Speaker A:And of course, you have to respect that, if that's what they're telling you.
Speaker A:But it's just so interesting because, again, you are so open and obviously have such a heart to share this stuff.
Speaker A:It seems like there could be some pretty profound convers that could happen.
Speaker C:I. I think so too, because I would love to know what their experience, childhood, was like as well, because I can only kind of guess, you know, at the different levels of understanding what was happening at home, how that impacted them.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker C:Yeah, I mean, there's still time, so we'll see.
Speaker C:We'll see.
Speaker B:Do you have other photos you'd like to share that might be a springboard?
Speaker C:I mean, this is.
Speaker C:I can.
Speaker C:I've got a topless photograph of me.
Speaker C:Do you want to see that one?
Speaker A:No, thank you.
Speaker C:I'm going to show it to you anyway.
Speaker C:I actually really, really love this photo.
Speaker C:I've just made this my phone screen, because there's.
Speaker C:I can kind of see the little model there.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Sorry, Ellie, I have to interrupt once again after that introduction.
Speaker B:You're going to have to describe this photo for our listener very quickly.
Speaker B:So they know the age and the context, because right now they think we're looking at a topless photo and you need to.
Speaker C:I'm 21.
Speaker C:Yeah, I reckon I am maybe three.
Speaker C:Two and a half.
Speaker C:Three.
Speaker C:And I'm very much.
Speaker C:I'm at the beach with just my bathing suit bottoms on and I'm holding onto a flagpole and there's the ocean behind me and I'm the hairs.
Speaker C:The wind's blowing my hair and I've sort of got this very cute pose happening, which I think I pulled that pose as a model in my modeling days.
Speaker A:Recreated the shot.
Speaker C:I think so.
Speaker C:But I just.
Speaker C:There's a lot of joy in that photograph and I love that picture.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's great.
Speaker A:So you're drawn to these moments of joy or where you can see that kind of innocence expressed.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Absolutely, yeah.
Speaker A:That's lovely.
Speaker A:So I think what I wanted to ask was you had to figure out a lot of stuff on your own because you weren't being told, you weren't being instructed.
Speaker A:Okay, this is what's happening and this is an understandable response or this is what you can expect.
Speaker A:You were figuring out that on your own.
Speaker A:Did that end up making you quite an independent young person?
Speaker C:Yes, but to my detriment.
Speaker C:Just asking for help is something that is unbelievable.
Speaker C:It doesn't even cross my mind.
Speaker C:I just think I've got to do this on my own.
Speaker C:And so I've had to really work on that.
Speaker C:And, you know, the amount of times my husband or a friend's gone, Allie, I would have helped you with that.
Speaker C:I'm like, oh, right.
Speaker C:So, yes, very much an independent person.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:And also just figuring out sort of the rules of life, you know, I guess you would have been a little vulnerable to getting hurt because you didn't feel like you had that info.
Speaker A:No one had kind of told you.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Do you think that led to more heartbreak as a result?
Speaker C:Oh, 100%.
Speaker C:Like, I went from one relationship into the next where I was always on the receiving end of being left being broken up with, being cheated on.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:Just a series of those relationships that were just when.
Speaker C:Whenever I. I somehow sought out the same relationship over and over and over again where, yeah, I was the invisible person and I was the caretaker of the other.
Speaker C:The other person.
Speaker C:And I was, you know, like, what can I.
Speaker C:What.
Speaker C:How can I meld myself to make you like me?
Speaker B:So always putting others needs before your own.
Speaker C:Oh, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:So if you can think back then what are the needs that were going unmet?
Speaker B:Because clearly your emotional intelligence is growing through this stage.
Speaker B:You're scanning, you're understanding what everyone wants from you.
Speaker B:But what do you feel was missing?
Speaker B:What were you craving.
Speaker C:To feel important and to want to know what my experience is of or was anything that I was experiencing as a kid, you know, to want to know how my day at school was or, you know, how was.
Speaker C:Did you like the movie that you just watched?
Speaker C:Or to feel.
Speaker C:Yeah, to feel that I was worthy and worthwhile of spending time with and yeah.
Speaker C:Wanting to know about what's really ticking inside.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:That's sad to hear that you were missing out on that stuff.
Speaker A:That of course, now you've made your mission as a parent to ensure that your kids don't feel that way, which is lovely.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:But did it create a rich inner world?
Speaker A:You know, There wasn't a lot of dialogue going on, a lot of time to yourself.
Speaker A:Were you a creative person internally and trying to make sense of all this?
Speaker C:Gosh, that's a really good question, huh?
Speaker C:I mean, I was, I was a constant book reader.
Speaker C:That was something I loved and still love to do.
Speaker C:And I was, I never, never did not have a book.
Speaker C:And that was a real escapism for me to, to dive into a book.
Speaker C:I used to do this thing, haven't done it in a while, but I used to do this thing where if I would see an animal, like a.
Speaker C:It was often a bird, I would place myself inside that bird and fly away.
Speaker C:I used to do that a lot, like daydream that.
Speaker C:But yeah, I can't.
Speaker C:That was probably about.
Speaker C:Yeah, that's it.
Speaker C:I don't, It's a. I don't know if I had a rich inner world.
Speaker C:Other.
Speaker C:Other than that.
Speaker A:That's an evocative image.
Speaker A:Did you ever draw or paint that image?
Speaker C:No, no, I haven't drawn or painted that one, actually.
Speaker A:Yeah, interesting.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's quite a powerful one.
Speaker A:So in terms of the evolution of your career that took off when you were 16, how did that change or alter.
Speaker A:I know you said it didn't change you so much in terms of your living situation or perhaps how you thought about yourself, but suddenly you, you have an increasing social profile.
Speaker A:More and more people know who you are.
Speaker A:That has to have an impact.
Speaker A:What does that do to your developing self?
Speaker C:Yeah, I didn't like it.
Speaker C:Yeah, I found that really, really challenging.
Speaker C:And I still, again, it's one of those things I still find really challenging.
Speaker C:You know, at the age that I was at, with the insecurities that I already had, there were times where, you know, the gangs of girls would spot me from across the road and I'd be yelled at.
Speaker C:That, you know, you think you're hot shit and you're not that pretty.
Speaker C:And those things would just terrify me and would make me want to just hide at home and not be in the industry anymore.
Speaker C:So, you know, having said all that, look, there were some amazing times as well.
Speaker C:There was travel, there was excitement, there was, there was doors opened just because I was, you know, a model.
Speaker C:But it was, yeah, for a people pleaser, insecure kid, it was actually kind of alarming to be an interesting guy.
Speaker B:So it didn't, it didn't tick those box.
Speaker B:The visibility, the affirmation.
Speaker C:No.
Speaker B:Didn't fill those holes.
Speaker A:It was anxiety provoking.
Speaker C:Yes, exactly.
Speaker C:Did the opposite.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Interesting.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:Did it cause any fusion of body image and self worth in an unhelpful way?
Speaker C:Well, I actually didn't.
Speaker C:I mean, at some point I had the idea that I didn't like the way I looked and I didn't like my body image.
Speaker C:I was always exceptionally thin, no matter how much I ate or what I did.
Speaker C:And so there was always the uranorexic thrown about and, you know, that sort of thing, which was never, ever, ever the case.
Speaker C:I never had an eating disorder.
Speaker A:So.
Speaker A:Sorry, what.
Speaker A:What age did you start to not like what you looked like?
Speaker C:I think that was around.
Speaker C:Oh, gosh, it's probably 10 or 11.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker C:Well, before modeling.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:And when modeling took off, I know you're saying that it caused you anxiety, but was there any, like, I guess, settling of that idea to go, oh, maybe I'm not as bad as I thought I was or anything like that?
Speaker A:That internal narrative, was it challenged?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:I could look at photographs of myself and go, I like that photograph.
Speaker C:That's a.
Speaker C:That's a really pretty photo.
Speaker C:But it didn't kind of shift the internal.
Speaker C:It was, yeah, still feel a bit yuck and gross and like, somehow this is just a facade and the real me underneath there is really not that pretty.
Speaker C:So there was still that kind of struggle going on.
Speaker B:Can you speak to the social messaging of the time as well, particularly for young girls?
Speaker B:Like, what were you absorbing from the culture?
Speaker C:I think I was around when the heroin chic thing went, and Kate Moss was the number one model in the world, but it often breaks my heart.
Speaker C:I cannot.
Speaker C:And I know women say this to me as a compliment, but when women say to me, I just wanted to be you when I was younger, I just would have loved to have looked like you, it really breaks my heart because I wanted to be somebody else.
Speaker C:I wanted to look like someone else, and they're wanting to look like me.
Speaker C:And I.
Speaker C:So I know what that's like.
Speaker C:That.
Speaker C:The fact that you don't.
Speaker C:You look in the mirror and you go, I don't like what?
Speaker C:What?
Speaker C:I don't like me.
Speaker C:I want to look like her.
Speaker C:It just.
Speaker C:It hurts when.
Speaker C:When women say that.
Speaker C:And like I said, I know they're saying it as a compliment, but, you know, and I was sort of.
Speaker C:I know I was held up as this.
Speaker C:The all Australian, you know, beach model type thing, when there was so many different colors of skin and colors of hair and eye color that are very Australian as well.
Speaker C:And, you know, it was in that time that it was like, yeah, the Blonde.
Speaker C:The blonde beach girl is what is the hot thing.
Speaker C:And that's the true blue Aussie.
Speaker C:And it's like, I remember having this gorgeous.
Speaker C:She was part Egyptian, part Greek and she goes, oh.
Speaker C:She said, I just.
Speaker C:I just wanted to look more Australian when I saw pictures of you.
Speaker C:And I'm like, oh, no.
Speaker C:And she's gorgeous, absolutely gorgeous.
Speaker B:So, yeah, that's a fascinating insight.
Speaker B:It is reflection.
Speaker B:I also would love to go back a little bit now.
Speaker B:I'm wondering how your family responded to the success.
Speaker B:Of course, now you're getting social admiration.
Speaker B:Did that change the way they related to you?
Speaker B:Did you feel more affirmed when they saw you kind of through the public eyes?
Speaker C:It didn't change anything with my sisters or at home, it was very much kept it quiet.
Speaker C:I didn't sort of ever bring home magazines and show them to my mum and dad.
Speaker C:Ever.
Speaker C:Yeah, it wasn't anything that was kind of really discussed or celebrated.
Speaker A:Why is that?
Speaker A:Because I could imagine you probably wanting them to feel proud of you or wanting that recognition, but perhaps you just normalized that you weren't going to get that or something.
Speaker C:Yeah, I think.
Speaker C:I don't really know, like, I don't think any of us, the three of us really sort of knew that there was a place to be able to have that at home.
Speaker C:So we just kept that to ourselves and just kept going.
Speaker C:Just moved on, pocketed it and kept going.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:So where did that validation then sit?
Speaker A:Because that's in stark contrast to what's happening at home where you're still feeling invisible, even though you've got this incredibly strong public image, which is quite a striking contrast.
Speaker A:How did that feel?
Speaker A:How did that sit with you?
Speaker C:It felt completely normal, to be honest.
Speaker C:Just absolutely normal.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:I do remember, you know, times when I wished I had probably a bit of, oh, Ali, look at this.
Speaker C:I bought this magazine with you on the COVID and you look so beautiful.
Speaker C:I remember wanting that sometimes, but it was just something I intrinsically knew not to celebrate somehow and not to bring home and.
Speaker C:Yeah, and then once I'd moved out, it was even less of a thing.
Speaker A:So self worth can be an elusive thing when you've grown up in a home without demonstrative love or being told you're great or just being nurtured and nourished in that way.
Speaker A:When did it start to happen for you?
Speaker A:At what point did you feel like your self worth started to become more healthy and you became your, what we might say, true self?
Speaker C:Gosh.
Speaker C:Still working on it.
Speaker C:Still working on it, you know, I've had glimpses of it for sure, in and out through my life.
Speaker C:I do.
Speaker C:The greatest joy I've ever had is raising three kids.
Speaker C:And knowing that I'm sort of changing familial patterns in a way, makes me really proud of myself and things like seeing my kids be best friends with each other makes me really proud.
Speaker C:And knowing that, okay, I've done some.
Speaker C:This is good.
Speaker C:You're good.
Speaker C:And then as I've.
Speaker C:Again, as I've gotten older, like, the book was a really.
Speaker C:A huge point of pride for me as well.
Speaker C:Getting that published and knowing that it helped a lot of women was really something.
Speaker C:So the later in life I get, the easier it's becoming to feel like that there's self worth and value, for sure.
Speaker A:Yeah, that's great.
Speaker A:I mean, one of the observations that's very clear to me is your desire for authenticity and whatever you do and the messiness you're willing to talk about, the messy things to try and create, as far as I can tell, the most real picture of what you're going through and what the journey is like as you can.
Speaker A:Is that important to.
Speaker C:To you?
Speaker C:Well, I feel like everyone's got their messy, you know, And I feel like, I think coming from the modeling world, where girls would look at me going, you look.
Speaker C:You are so lucky.
Speaker C:You had the best life possible.
Speaker C:And I'm like, can I just tell you?
Speaker C:Can I tell you?
Speaker C:So I know what you're looking at.
Speaker C:This, the face.
Speaker C:But let me tell you more about the messy, as you put it, you know, and that we're exactly the same.
Speaker C:We're exactly the same.
Speaker C:I have my struggles and you have yours.
Speaker C:And I think that is something that has driven me in a lot of ways, is to connect to people in the messy and to connect in a way that people assume one thing about me or my relationship and to be like, no, actually, we struggle just like you.
Speaker C:We're just.
Speaker C:Or whatever it is, you know, I just think that's sometimes really important to.
Speaker B:Share that through line of craving honesty.
Speaker B:It's beautiful.
Speaker B:And I imagine so many, so many younger girls might have dreamt of being a model like you.
Speaker B:And then, of course, you're telling us you wanted to be a mother.
Speaker B:And I also understand that you wanted to be an educator, a childhood educator, and maybe you could tell us a little bit about that dream and how that played out for you.
Speaker C:Yeah, that was my two things.
Speaker C:Whenever anyone asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up, and that was a Mum and a preschool teacher and the mom came first.
Speaker C:And then when I was in America, my dream of becoming a preschool teacher came true as well.
Speaker C:And it was, it was everything I could have wanted and more.
Speaker C:And it was absolutely delightful.
Speaker C:I've just always.
Speaker C:Maybe it's because I have the mind of a three year old, I don't know.
Speaker C:But that age, that sort of, that 32-34-age, oh my God, I just love them.
Speaker C:I love them so much.
Speaker C:I find the way they work, the way they think, the way they see the world is just utterly magic.
Speaker C:And so getting to be a part of that was just such an honor to be able to have, you know, other people hand me their most precious possessions and saying, can you look after them from the age of.
Speaker C:Or from the time of nine till two or whatever.
Speaker C:And I'd be like, yes, I can and I'm gonna do my best.
Speaker C:So it was, it was just delightful.
Speaker C:It's.
Speaker C:I don't know why I've always.
Speaker C:And you know, everyone knows who's known me for a long time.
Speaker C:It's like, oh my God, all I talked about was being a mum and little kids.
Speaker C:That's just all I.
Speaker C:It's all I wanted to be around.
Speaker C:It's all I wanted to do.
Speaker C:As for work, it's just still love them.
Speaker C:Can't wait to be a grandma.
Speaker A:Great.
Speaker A:And obviously there's so much going on for you personally in that journey as well, in nurturing little people, as you spoke to in your letter.
Speaker A:Not to spoil the letter that we'll hear today.
Speaker B:I feel like I want to interject as well to say that our sister, who adores you, is also a childhood educator.
Speaker B:So she's only going to love you even more now.
Speaker B:Yeah, you've got that.
Speaker B:You've got quite a lot in common, I think.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker C:I mean, what, What?
Speaker C:Like they just.
Speaker C:They're not.
Speaker C:They're heroes, you know, they're just heroes.
Speaker C:They have so much influence.
Speaker C:You can make such an impact on a kid's life by being a good educator.
Speaker A:I have so many thoughts as you're speaking, like one being, you know, my sister in mind and her entire cohort generation.
Speaker A:Sorry, our sister.
Speaker A:I guess maybe I just feel like she's more mine than yours.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:Wow.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:You feel like she is more your sister.
Speaker B:I don't know.
Speaker B:I don't know why I keep saying that works.
Speaker A:All right, from now on, I include you.
Speaker A:Our sister.
Speaker A:Definitely.
Speaker A:I was thinking that in terms of you as a leader, Ali, of That generation, you know, who met you through Dolly and idolized you, perhaps.
Speaker A:But you're desire for authenticity and sharing the messy and being real now, just going on that journey with people and, you know, speaking honestly about menopause and all of that, it's just what a.
Speaker A:What a refreshing thing to have someone who's willing to be that truthful.
Speaker A:And hearing you talk about how insecure you felt, you definitely don't come across that way because the willingness to share the messy comes across to me as someone who's quite secure and willing to be vulnerable to not necessarily show their best self at all times.
Speaker A:And, you know, I could imagine someone who's come out of modeling emerging that way, that I need to present, quote, unquote, perfectly all the time in order to be worthy.
Speaker A:You've gone the other way.
Speaker C:Yeah, I have.
Speaker C:I have.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:I think.
Speaker C:And I do.
Speaker C:That's a good.
Speaker C:Why did I do that?
Speaker C:Gosh, I just think it's a hard way to live in that facade.
Speaker C:I think that's part of it.
Speaker C:And yeah, I don't want to pretend like I have, you know, no cellulite and a.
Speaker C:And a muffin top.
Speaker C:Like, I don't want to pretend Like, I just want people to know that so we can relate.
Speaker C:I don't know.
Speaker A:Yeah, well, it's just.
Speaker A:Yeah, it cuts through and I think it's really helpful when people do that.
Speaker A:But, yeah, the opposite.
Speaker A:I just feel.
Speaker A:I feel sorry for people that can't seem to break through that artifice and they feel that need and pressure to present like, everything's great.
Speaker A:Because I just look at that and think, well, that's not true, is it?
Speaker A:To the human experience.
Speaker A:So there's something unhealthy there.
Speaker C:And I just.
Speaker C:And I think it just.
Speaker C:I think about how to me, that's exhausting as well.
Speaker C:Like to hold that all together to present like your everything's fine and dandy.
Speaker C:I just think that must be.
Speaker C:It's just.
Speaker C:It's too, too exhausting to do.
Speaker C:Can I, can I.
Speaker C:Can I share one thing?
Speaker C:That, that's really.
Speaker C:When you were talking about, you know, being honest and body image and.
Speaker C:And, you know, talking honestly about menopause, that I've had this said to me quite a few times, and it is one of the most beautiful things that a woman can say is, you know, I followed you as a.
Speaker C:As a young girl.
Speaker C:You know, I got my period with you when you were young, and now I'm going through menopause for you.
Speaker C:And to span that those Two life cycles with women.
Speaker C:And to be thanked for that just because I'm just there is so unbelievably moving and meaningful to me that I've somehow normalized menopause, but more so because I was the model and that's where I'm, I wouldn't change that time of my life for anything because of what it's given to me now in this experience.
Speaker A:That's great.
Speaker C:Really wild.
Speaker A:And to that end, you talked about almost the imposter syndrome you had when you were younger, that, you know, people see me a certain way but I don't feel that way, which is a vulnerable, anxiety provoking position to be in the feeling like the ground could fall out or I'll be exposed.
Speaker A:But these days it's, you sound like a more integrated person, that it's, you are who you are and you're happy to talk about that.
Speaker A:Is it true that there's less of a feeling like people might see through you now?
Speaker C:Yeah, I still have, I still have a super sensitivity to people's comments and thoughts and judgments.
Speaker C:I'm like, you know, Instagram is just an absolute minefield for me.
Speaker C:When I have to post, I like having a panic attack every time I don't have that ability to go, you know, whatever people think of you, it's fine.
Speaker C:I'm like, no, like one comment can, like one main comment can like bring me to my knees.
Speaker C:But I, I, I have done a lot of therapy and I've chosen to do that and have, and I'm in therapy now.
Speaker C:I started again about four or five months ago and very grateful to be in therapy because I just, I want to know myself better and there's still things that I get stuck on and cause me pain that I want to understand more so I can live the rest of my life without the shackles of that.
Speaker B:That is something that I wanted to talk to you about as well.
Speaker B:Of course, having read your book, I've got a little bit of insight into some of the experiences you've had and the journey.
Speaker B:But I was struck by how important you mentioned group therapy has been for you.
Speaker B:Would you mind talking a little bit about your experience with group therapy and how it's helped you?
Speaker C:Yeah, I think it was well for me at the bottom line is being witnessed, you know, just being witnessed in whatever it was you were experiencing, in joy, in pain, and in a room full of people that were also there to understand themselves as well.
Speaker C:So that collective experience of learning, looking for self healing was something that I really Loved.
Speaker C:Really loved that.
Speaker A:And through that process is that sense of invisibility that you had as a young person, is that changing and evolving now?
Speaker C:Very much so, yeah.
Speaker C:It was actually came back a lot when I moved back to Australia because I left.
Speaker C:Had to leave all my friends and community behind and yeah, 25 years away was.
Speaker C:It's.
Speaker C:That's a long time to try to even pick up friendships from, you know, that's a lot of growth time in friendships.
Speaker C:I've been able to pick up with one of my high school buddies, the lovely, lovely lady, which, which is really joyful to me.
Speaker C:But a lot of those lonely feelings came raging to the top.
Speaker A:Isn't it fascinating how our.
Speaker A:The resonant frequencies from childhood can find their way into our adult life in unexpected ways at unexpected times?
Speaker B:Especially when you've had a location move like that.
Speaker B:You've grown so much in the time and you're back in the spotlight.
Speaker C:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker C:And back to the source of all the loneliness as well.
Speaker C:You know, where it's like where it all began.
Speaker C:And I've been out of the spotlight for years and years and years in America and, and I got back to Australia and then all of a sudden the spotlight was upon me and it was terrifying, absolutely terrifying.
Speaker C:And I felt really, I felt really ashamed of aging and looking different and I was going to disappoint all those people that remembered me from Dolly and I was like, whoa, this is, this is not good.
Speaker C:This is not healthy.
Speaker C:But I remember feeling all that self consciousness that, that people pleasing that I've got to, I've got to look like something else and be something else or else I'm gonna be judged again was just all came falling from the sky again.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker C:But having now in a business with the menopause and my, my work and not being.
Speaker C:I was still being in the public eye a little bit.
Speaker C:But just creating a business through menopause is really.
Speaker C:That's helped enormously to feel that, that my self worth is no longer wrapped up in how I looked.
Speaker C:Because that's what I thought was the only thing that I had self worth about was as long as I look pretty, then I could be liked.
Speaker C:And then what happens when pretty disappears, you know?
Speaker B:So yeah, perhaps this is a good moment for you to tell us what menopauses meant to you.
Speaker B:Because reading the book, it really felt like a renewal.
Speaker B:I think you described it as a metamorphosis.
Speaker B:Like you've used this moment in your life for real self reflection and empowerment.
Speaker B:It might not be the first thing that people would assume someone going through menopause would experience.
Speaker B:So, yeah.
Speaker B:Can you tell us and our listeners a little bit about what this journey has meant for you and what message you want to share with people?
Speaker C:Yeah, well, that was.
Speaker C:I had pretty much every symptom under the sun when it came to menopause.
Speaker C:It hit me so hard, and there was so many layers around that that I just was so confused by the fact I didn't know what was coming.
Speaker C:I didn't know anything about what this perimenopause was that it took me to, like, just the absolute depths of mental health that I'd never, never been to before.
Speaker C:I thought my marriage was over.
Speaker C:And at the same time, like, there was this other part of myself, and that's the only way I can describe it that was kind of going, all right, Ally, like, what are you going to do with this?
Speaker C:Like, you know, you're not going to.
Speaker C:This can't take you down.
Speaker C:Like, what.
Speaker C:What is happening here?
Speaker C:And it was.
Speaker C:I think, you know, whether that's my personality or having done therapy, I was like, I have to believe that this doesn't just happen for fun or for yucks, like the universe, whoever, God is not just gone.
Speaker C:You know what women, you're just gonna.
Speaker C:You're gonna get fat and ugly and get real hot and never want sex and again.
Speaker C:And, you know, just for fun.
Speaker C:Like, there has to be more to it.
Speaker C:And that's what I really wanted to explore in the book and in myself as well.
Speaker C:What is there more.
Speaker C:What is there more to this?
Speaker C:Why is this happening?
Speaker A:So it's a philosophical question.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:It just.
Speaker C:It happens to every woman.
Speaker C:So there's got to be a biological, physiological, spiritual reason why women go through this.
Speaker C:I couldn't believe it was just for, you know, let's have a bit more pain, and that's it.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker C:And that really caused me to look at myself as a female, as a woman.
Speaker C:What my story was, what had led me to the place that I was at and where did I then want to go and what did I want to discover about myself?
Speaker C:And that's what menopause really gave me.
Speaker C:That's what got me back into therapy and understanding those places also that I'd.
Speaker C:That had been hurt and unlooked at and uncared for for so many years.
Speaker C:That's.
Speaker C:Menopause took me to that place and went, yeah, it's time.
Speaker A:And I think you described it as a second adolescence of sorts.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:It really is.
Speaker C:It's just getting to be, I guess, your own parent.
Speaker C:Getting to finally.
Speaker C:And I finally understood what self care was.
Speaker C:I never understood it.
Speaker C:I did not.
Speaker C:It was a concept I'd heard over and over and over again.
Speaker C:Did not understand it.
Speaker C:And it was the first time that I went, oh.
Speaker C:So I asked myself what I need first before I ask everybody else.
Speaker A:Huh.
Speaker C:Okay.
Speaker C:And still.
Speaker C:And no one loses out because I'm also asking them after I ask myself.
Speaker C:But I'm asking myself first what I need.
Speaker C:Holy crap.
Speaker A:Like, yeah, we never stop learning.
Speaker C:Right?
Speaker C:That's a new concept.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:But what about the concept of invisibility that you've already spoken about?
Speaker A:Of course, you know, you hear a lot of women talk about the fact that going through menopause can, can cause them to feel more invisible.
Speaker A:Has that tapped into that insecurity and longing from childhood?
Speaker C:Yeah, the invisibility factor is, it's a, it's a, it's a funny one.
Speaker C:Like, I like, would I want to be noticed again like I was when I was 20?
Speaker C:No, I actually wouldn't.
Speaker C:I would not take that.
Speaker C:I wouldn't go back there.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:Looking for something richer than that.
Speaker C:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker C:Very, very much so.
Speaker C:Like, nothing delights me more when you know, in a business meeting or something and I give my opinion and it's like, that's, that's really good.
Speaker C:Like that's a great idea.
Speaker C:And I'm like, huh, okay.
Speaker C:That gets me excited.
Speaker A:And can you tell us a bit about your work with Rise Up?
Speaker A:Because I was really interested in reading about that too because that sounds really profound and powerful stuff.
Speaker A:Tell us about that.
Speaker C:Yeah, so they're actually a Queensland based charity, mind you, they are now all across Australia and you Zealand and they assist vulnerable women and children who have escaped domestic violence and they create a safe home for them.
Speaker C:So those women who've been in shelters anonymously living for however long, they are taken to a home that is then their home.
Speaker C:They don't own the home, but the home is being paid for, government funded and rise up funded and every bit everything in that home is now theirs.
Speaker C:That the, the apartment house, whatever it is, it's decorated, there is food in the cupboard, there is milk in the fridge, there are fresh flowers, there's toothbrushes, underwear, soaps, dental floss, there's toys for the kids, there's sheets on the bed and it is theirs to live in for however long they need it for.
Speaker C:If they want it for 30 years, if they want it for three days, it is their safe place to come home to.
Speaker A:And you've been boots on the ground going in to help set up these houses.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Tell us a bit about that experience.
Speaker A:What's that like?
Speaker C:Oh, my God, it's so unbelievably meaningful.
Speaker C:The first home that I did was a home up in Queensland.
Speaker C:I was working in the kids room.
Speaker C:There was a little boy that was going to be coming in.
Speaker C:I think he was about 5.
Speaker C:And literally, as I'm making his bed and putting the toys on his bed, I knew that this little kid was.
Speaker C:Was coming in in a couple of hours.
Speaker C:We.
Speaker C:We never meet the people, the domestic.
Speaker C:We never meet them because you never want them to feel ashamed or embarrassed if you bumped into them in the street or something.
Speaker C:So that keeps their dignity.
Speaker C:But, like, to think I was putting, like, a little toy truck beside the bed and a little stuffed toy for this kid that, like, this was so poignant to me because, like, his life is about to be so much better and this is going to be a turning point for him.
Speaker C:So just incredibly meaningful, what they do.
Speaker A:That's incredibly powerful work, and it speaks to your heart and, I guess, mission in a sense of nurturing kids and.
Speaker A:And providing a safe space for them and helping them feel loved and wanted.
Speaker B:It's beautiful.
Speaker B:It's a fulfillment of your dream to look after children.
Speaker C:It is.
Speaker B:And I suppose we'd be remiss not to talk about your experience as a mother as well, your other childhood dream that's come true.
Speaker B:I did just listen to a wonderful interview that you did with your daughter, Lotus.
Speaker B:You had her on your podcast and that just.
Speaker B:Your amazing relationship was just shining through in that and your connection.
Speaker B:So not a surprise, but beautiful to hear.
Speaker B:But please tell us a little bit about your experience as a mother and what that's been like.
Speaker C:Yeah, it has been, oh, my God, the best.
Speaker C:The best and continues to be the best thing that I could ever experience.
Speaker C:I just.
Speaker C:I would have been a mother no matter what.
Speaker C:Whether I had a husband, whether I was infertile, I would have been a mom.
Speaker C:So whether.
Speaker C:Yeah, through adoption, whatever it took that was gonna be.
Speaker C:I was not gonna die without becoming a mom.
Speaker C:I knew that.
Speaker C:And I just.
Speaker C:I loved every second of it.
Speaker C:I loved being pregnant.
Speaker C:I found the whole.
Speaker C:Being pregnant was miraculous.
Speaker C:The days after, like, I don't.
Speaker C:I was saying to my husband, I'm, like, I don't ever remember having those days of going, get me out of here, or, like, I'm done, or I don't remember a single day of Mothering like that, it was just, of course I hit the wall and of course I got tired and of course I got frustrated, but all I really remember is through it all is just total, an utter, lifelong, joy filled, dream fulfilled.
Speaker C:Amazing, amazing experiences.
Speaker C:And yeah, I just.
Speaker C:They're just incredible humans.
Speaker C:I love them.
Speaker A:How beautiful that you've been able to create like as per your determination from even when you were young to create that home and give them that love and you know, create a home full of joy, that that was something that you missed out on.
Speaker A:That's really lovely to hear.
Speaker C:Yeah, it's so, and, and, and maybe it's sometimes I wonder if it was selfish that I was having my own healing experience with my kids, but I just, I loved creating a joyful home.
Speaker C:I loved creating traditions.
Speaker C:I never had a tradition ever.
Speaker C:Growing up.
Speaker C:We had nothing.
Speaker C:And you know, we've still got the same traditions around Easter and Christmas morning.
Speaker C:And it's just.
Speaker C:Yeah, it just.
Speaker C:I become like a little kid again, strangely enough.
Speaker C:And I know that, you know, it's normal for them, but just to be able to know that I've done what I really wanted with the kids.
Speaker A:Very special.
Speaker A:Ali, we.
Speaker A:You've been so generous with your time, but I'm aware we have to let you go soon, but, but I ask this of every single person we speak to.
Speaker A:What is it like for you?
Speaker A:And I know it's a complicated question, you know, given that childhood you've described, but what's it like for you to think back to little Ellie and spend some time reflecting on her again?
Speaker C:I think what I'm sort of attempting to do a little bit more of these days when I think back to little Ali is to imagine myself holding her real close and protecting her and, you know, taking her out of situations that were not.
Speaker C:She shouldn't have been in.
Speaker C:And yeah, so I, I feel like, I feel like there was.
Speaker C:I think I came in.
Speaker C:I do think I came into this world with a sparkle.
Speaker C:And I'm.
Speaker C:I.
Speaker C:And that sparkle certainly went out, but it still, it didn't disappear.
Speaker C:I think it just got buried somewhere.
Speaker C:And so I'm still working on bringing that little girl sparkle out when I can.
Speaker C:But I just, I think I just admire the resilience of, you know, myself and kids as well in general.
Speaker C:But you know, there's, there's been many a tear shed as well.
Speaker C:You know, thinking back to little Ally, but I think, yeah, just spending some time back there sometimes and giving her a big hug really helps.
Speaker A:Well, thank you for Doing that today.
Speaker A:The sparkle is well and truly alive.
Speaker A:And thanks for sharing your heart with us and your story.
Speaker A:I mean, you're such a great storyteller and such a great leader, I think, to so many.
Speaker A:So thank you.
Speaker C:That's very kind.
Speaker C:Thank you.
Speaker C:Thanks for your time.
Speaker A:All right, Nick.
Speaker A:There was a lot in that conversation, but mostly I was struck by Ali's heart and her willingness to share something that felt really real with us.
Speaker A:She's really good at that.
Speaker B:Such a natural.
Speaker B:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker B:You could tell it was hard for her.
Speaker B:You know, I think it's hard for any of us.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:Thinking back to our childhood and going to that place and being that honest.
Speaker B:Yeah, it's emotionally taxing, but just so rewarding and such so generous of her to share like she did.
Speaker A:Yeah, it is not easy.
Speaker A:It's definitely not easy to think back and talk about a childhood that was difficult.
Speaker A:But I think she does it with grace and just.
Speaker A:Yeah, she's just a great example of someone willing to tell the truth and try and do that as honestly as she can, which is not easy.
Speaker A:Like, it's the contrast with Ali that really strikes me that, you know, she started her career, her public facing career, you know, on the COVID of magazines as someone that was idolized, just unquestionably beautiful.
Speaker A:And she spoke about the fact that, you know, everyone would say, I just wish I looked like you, but that really hurt her and was something that she found really difficult.
Speaker A:And there's something really telling in that, you know, about, I guess, our cultural pressure, our unending cultural pressure to be beautiful, powerful, successful, and that that somehow equates to health and happiness.
Speaker A:It's just not true.
Speaker A:For Ellie, that wasn't it.
Speaker B:No, no.
Speaker B:And that it has to be an internal message, not an external message.
Speaker B:It doesn't matter if you're on the COVID of the magazines.
Speaker B:If you haven't grown up feeling like you're beautiful or getting that love and nourishment from the people that you need it from most, you're not going to believe it.
Speaker B:Even if the whole world tells you you're the epitome of beauty.
Speaker B:Yeah, you're not going to believe it.
Speaker A:It's just very hard to get away from that cultural messaging because it's been so endemic in our culture.
Speaker A:It's everywhere, all the time.
Speaker A:And I think perhaps women, you know, struggle with it even more.
Speaker A:Like just the pressure, you know, around their body image, et cetera.
Speaker A:But yeah, hearing Ali's story is just one of those.
Speaker A:I mean, it's One of many stories, to be perfectly honest, of people saying, I don't feel like what people tell me I am.
Speaker A:And, you know, thinking about why is quite interesting in Ali's case, isn't it, and where the genesis of that is and.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:Self perception.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:And of course, you know, we got a revealing look at that in terms of her childhood and what she went through.
Speaker A:What.
Speaker A:What struck you most about that?
Speaker B:Well, of course, it was the isolation, you know, thinking back to a child on her own a lot of the time.
Speaker B:And I thought she.
Speaker B:I love the word used before Grace because I think she was so graceful in the way she approached it, and I think it came across really clearly.
Speaker B:I also know it even more from having read her book.
Speaker B:She is just.
Speaker B:She loves her parents so much.
Speaker B:She really does.
Speaker B:And she's come to a place of understanding.
Speaker B:And I just thought the way that she handled reflecting on the things that were missing gracefully was really important and impactful today.
Speaker B:But what hit me most was the fact that she was alone a lot of the time and that she needed some things that were not provided for her.
Speaker B:And I think she just spoke about that with just.
Speaker B:The emotion was just simmering there through the whole conversation.
Speaker B:And I just felt very sorry for little Ellie.
Speaker A:Me too.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:It was quite sad hearing that.
Speaker A:And it just emphasizes what we know, that kids need to feel safe, they need to feel loved.
Speaker A:It's the.
Speaker A:It's the fundamental that we all have.
Speaker A:And look.
Speaker A:Yep.
Speaker A:Sometimes, for a variety of reasons, parents struggle to provide that, but when they can't, there is a cost.
Speaker A:And in Ali's case, I think we can think about the schemas that developed those rules that were internalized at a young age that led to that people pleasing trait that she spoke about today, that sense of, I'm not good enough on my own, I need to please you and do what you want in order to provide that safety and structure and the knowledge that I won't be abandoned.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I don't mean to jump ahead here, but the other thing that really hit me from this conversation is, of course, the direct link between someone who is a people pleaser, who is scanning everyone to try and work out, how do I gain your approval, how do I gain your attention, how do I fit in here?
Speaker B:Led to the most amazing emotional intelligence, led to the most amazing insights on how everyone operates.
Speaker B:That kind of.
Speaker B:I mean, that's the genesis of the emotionally intelligent, beautiful woman that she is who's able to do all the work she did.
Speaker B:I mean, it's a very direct link back to those difficulties.
Speaker A:Well, it could have gone a different way, couldn't it?
Speaker A:Because of the adulation she received.
Speaker A:I could imagine an alternate the of part pathway where Ali became addicted to the adulation and addicted to the praise that comes from that.
Speaker A:You know, you look great and therefore are great.
Speaker A:That never clicked for her.
Speaker A:She needed something more authentic than that and is quite a leader now.
Speaker A:I think in just being honest that's.
Speaker A:It's so refreshing and not easy.
Speaker A:Like it's.
Speaker A:You can't take that for granted.
Speaker A:There's a vulnerability that she has in.
Speaker A:In her public Persona that's just.
Speaker A:Yeah, it's really appealing because it feels really true.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I think one of the biggest insights that she's sharing at the moment is actually needing to turn that authenticity and honesty to herself and the way that she's used menopause and the stages that she's in for self empowerment and for self knowledge.
Speaker B:Like she's really turned inwards and as a, you know, a chronic people pleaser her whole life, she's always been of service.
Speaker B:She's always put other people's needs first, which is a beautiful thing to do and you know, creates such love around you.
Speaker B:But yeah, turning that inwards and, and kind of looking at self discovery, self mastery, self love, self compassion.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:A beautiful message to share and you can see why she's so admired.
Speaker B:And I feel like a real leader in that space.
Speaker A:And finding her assertiveness and.
Speaker A:And the.
Speaker A:The value of her voice and the ability to speak up for herself has been quite the journey from the sounds of things, which is wonderful.
Speaker A:And I also just.
Speaker A:There's just not a lot of ego that comes across from Ali.
Speaker A:And again, I think that's something that certainly could have been born from all of that public success in the magazine kind of life that she was living.
Speaker A:But she's really humble.
Speaker A:At least, you know, comes across that way.
Speaker A:Which is again, really refreshing, I think, and quite a lovely example to the people that are following her.
Speaker A:I also love the generational track like that.
Speaker A:You know, people like our sister.
Speaker A:Our sister, you know, I got it right that time.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker A:Who, yeah, grew up idolizing Ali in the magazines.
Speaker A:Is now, sorry to at you least, but going through menopause probably herself and you know, and can look to Ali as an example and leader in that space and someone who can just, I don't know, provide comfort in creating community through authenticity.
Speaker B:Totally.
Speaker B:And she's such a perfect person for that.
Speaker B:Partly because she was so well known at a time mid-80s.
Speaker B:People are so nostalgic for that time.
Speaker B:She's in the COVID of these magazines that were, you know, people absolutely loved those.
Speaker B:So yeah, she's a figure that reminds them of that innocent and trouble free period perhaps.
Speaker B:And so to be going through with her now as a leader.
Speaker B:Yeah, awesome.
Speaker A:She was also clearly keen not to tie everything up neatly in a bow and to tell us the work's ongoing, the scars from childhood haven't fully healed and she's doing the work, you know, she's trying really hard and is in therapy again.
Speaker A:And, and it is a lifelong process and I think we need to be realistic with therapy, you know, that you can definitely make some fantastic gains and learn a lot and develop new habits, but it doesn't delete what you've gone through.
Speaker A:And the experiences of childhood do stay with us.
Speaker A:So it's a balancing act and there's acceptance involved and I guess an acknowledgement of, of our impulses and how.
Speaker A:Habits and awareness of them.
Speaker B:No, well said.
Speaker B:How much of a connection do you think there is between.
Speaker B:What am I trying to say here?
Speaker B:So Ellie is she comes across as so content, so measured and so comfortable.
Speaker B:And then we're hearing that her, her childhood dreams were to become a mother and to work with kids.
Speaker B:So with all of the story of fame, with all the story of loneliness and some difficulties, many difficulties along the way, we do also have a story of someone that just fulfilled their lifelong dream.
Speaker B:Their childhood dream.
Speaker A:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker A:But in spite of her upbringing and I don't think she would, you know, say that in any way, she's happy with the fact that her childhood was quite sad and lonely.
Speaker A:But yes, she has absolutely followed her passions and lived according to her values.
Speaker A:And I think you can see that the way that's creating someone who feels like they're living an authentic full life.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:And the compassion bit too.
Speaker A:I don't think we can ignore that.
Speaker A:Like the value of loving people.
Speaker A:And you know, through her charitable work, like with Rise up, that's really emotional in a positive way.
Speaker A:You know, the way that she is just at the ground level helping love people and help them feel connected and that they are young people, you know, in need of love like she was, that's that kind of reparenting work I think she's doing at a pretty deep level.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:It was just always going to happen, wasn't it?
Speaker B:Those values of compassion were built into her childhood dream.
Speaker B:Being a mother, loving kids, helping kids that need it.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker A:What a great episode, if I may say so.
Speaker A:Sorry to talk up our podcast.
Speaker B:So much thanks to Ellie.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:Really an ideal guest, I think.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And we knew it.
Speaker B:We knew it as soon as we spoke to her on her podcast.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Getting people on with amazing stories, but who also just so insightful.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:And have wisdom to share.
Speaker B:We love it.
Speaker A:And we do.
Speaker A:Nick, thank you.
Speaker A:It's a pleasure doing this with you.
Speaker A:And yeah, I look forward to the next one.
Speaker B:Likewise.
Speaker B:See ya.
Speaker C:So this is a letter to myself.
Speaker C:I'm pretty small at this age.
Speaker C:I think I'm about three, all four.
Speaker C:And this is kind of Big Ali talking to little Ali and all the things that little Ali would have loved to have heard.
Speaker C:I would love to sit near you because I love you and I want to be around you.
Speaker C:How are you feeling?
Speaker C:How was school?
Speaker C:Tell me more about your day.
Speaker C:I'm so interested in to know.
Speaker C:What are you drawing?
Speaker C:You're so clever.
Speaker C:I'm sticking this picture on the fridge.
Speaker C:Let's do some drawing together.
Speaker C:You seem a little sad.
Speaker C:Can you tell me what's going on?
Speaker C:Come and sit on my lap.
Speaker C:Choose a book and I'll read it to you.
Speaker C:I have something so fun planned for you.
Speaker C:Who else shall we ask to come with us?
Speaker C:Come cook with me in the kitchen.
Speaker C:I love.
Speaker C:But when we spend time together, tell me what you think about this.
Speaker C:Your opinion is so important.
Speaker C:You will see me at school for your play, your dance concert, your athletics carnival, your school fete.
Speaker C:I will be there because I love you.
Speaker C:It sounds like you're really hurt.
Speaker C:What can I do?
Speaker C:How can I help you right now?
Speaker C:Let's go have some fun.
Speaker B:You're A Good Kid is produced by Nick and James Van Cuylenberg, Recorded at Whitehouse Sound in Melbourne, Australia, with artwork by Dirty Puppet.
Speaker A:We acknowledge the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation as the traditional owners of the land on which this podcast was recorded.
Speaker A:Recorded, and recognise their continuing connection to lands, waters and community.
Speaker B:We pay our respects to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures and to the elders, past, present and emerging.
Speaker A:If anything in this podcast has raised concerns related to mental health, please contact your health professional or if urgent, call Lifeline on 13, 11, 14.
